5 ms·

are you serious??? How long did it take for muslims representatives to say sorry about the invasions and conquest that led to the creation of crusades? I have y

by ousta 11y ago

are you serious??? How long did it take for muslims representatives to say sorry about the invasions and conquest that led to the creation of crusades? I have yet to hear an apology.

jacquesm 11y ago
It doesn't matter to me what the other side of a conflict does, what matters to me is what my side of a conflict does. The fact that we don't descend to the level of our opponents gives us at least a moral edge, and it might even give us a real edge in the longer run. The moral high ground is one that you give up at your peril. Not that the Catholic church in particular has much moral high ground left but at least they did this, good for them.
- ousta 11y ago
  the thing your kind of people (which is the majority of people in the western world) will never understand is that barbary will always win against democracy. It is by saying sorry, teaching to people that you opressed them, enslaved them, telling them that they are a minority living with less chances and opportunities than a random "white man" well those same people will hate you for this, they will always see you as their enemy -just look at BLM in usa, the riots in french suburbs- and you gave them the tools. Hell I am myself a minority - coming from a muslim country - and get this because I lived in the suburbs of France and saw the global mindset of people there. This is a war of civilisations and way of life. and trust me. the peaceful one, the one that always say sorry for everything is not going to win.
  - anu_gupta 11y ago
    > that barbary will always win against democracy It's a shame that your argument fails in the first sentence.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > This is a war of civilisations and way of life. and trust me. the peaceful one, the one that always say sorry for everything is not going to win. As long as you see the world in terms of 'your kind of people' and 'my kind of people' you are to some degree part of the problem. This is not a war of 'civilizations', though it could very well turn into one if we lose our calm. Unfortunately, given the technological edge and the willingness to defend 'my kind of people' will eventually - reluctantly, hopefully - switch to a different mode which will make the crusades look like a picnic outing. The problem is that IS and company are waking something up that they have absolutely no way to deal with and it would be far better for everybody involved if this did not come to pass. But with the number of people clamoring to have this out by the bikeshed it may already be too late. Until then 'our kind of people' should do their best to derail this conflict before it becomes mass-murder/civil war on an unprecedented scale and to find another solution.
    - saiya-jin 11y ago
      but... don't you see this is exactly what they are striving for? you don't blow up yourself on stadium or in cafe to defeat a country, and not to conquer it in any way. no sane jihadist (and high ranks are probably pretty clever folks) would expect that. the goal is simple - create chaos, increase tension between europeans and immigrants, create a spirale of violence producing more violence, till every side has good reasons to not step back. this is goal of jihad in europe, footsoldiers will be people already living here, that initially were living peaceful life, but eventually some violence will drag them in. at the end, civil war. France for example could actually avoid that, if it retreated from all its military interventions, but that's not going to happen, and again, jihadists realize that too. I must agree with parent poster, nice approach ain't going to solve this, and victor at the end will be probably the more ruthless one. But fear not, as they say we're 7 days to the wolves, and we europeans can still kick a butt or two if pressed hard. I hope I am wrong, that's for sure :)
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        I agree that this is what they are striving for, which is the one reason not to give it to them. Escalation is exactly the goal since it will allow them to drive an even bigger wedge into our societies and between people that have been living here peacefully for decades.
  - seivan 11y ago
    I agree with you. I my family and I also grew up in an islamic enclave. We saw the hell it caused. Pretty much all ex-muslims by now. People like the parent will never understand and will keep insinuating you're racist and they are brilliantly anti-racist. I am going to ask you to give up.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      > People like the parent will never understand and will keep insinuating you're racist and they are brilliantly anti-racist. I'm not insinuating he's racist, do not put words in my mouth.
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    >barbary will always win against democracy. Perhaps, but probably not the kind of barbarism that you're thinking about. The barbarians that win over democracy will use economic forces to enslave its own citizens, and will use the productivity of the citizens to produce resources and weapons, and use those to take what they want. Some would argue that this has already happened. >just look at BLM in usa What about them? They're not barbarians, just noisy protesters. >This is a war of civilisations and way of life. No one from the US will keep you from living even what they consider a barbaric way of life as long as you sell your oil cheap. >and trust me. the peaceful one, the one that always say sorry for everything is not going to win. Maybe you're not referring to the US. I haven't noticed us to be very peaceful over the last thirty years.
- vixen99 11y ago
  Only my opinion but I'd rather be a survivor to discuss the finer points of morality later on than have the supposed moral edge right now prior to my dispatch.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    Chances are overwhelmingly in favor of you being a survivor, media messages to the contrary.
alvarosm 11y ago
He doesn't care. In his view we're guilty of everything. In the end, sadly, he's just another primitive religious zealot, not unlike the ones who decapitate people.
- dang 11y ago
  Personal attacks are not allowed on HN. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

by ousta 11y ago

are you serious??? How long did it take for muslims representatives to say sorry about the invasions and conquest that led to the creation of crusades? I have yet to hear an apology.

jacquesm 11y ago

It doesn't matter to me what the other side of a conflict does, what matters to me is what my side of a conflict does. The fact that we don't descend to the level of our opponents gives us at least a moral edge, and it might even give us a real edge in the longer run. The moral high ground is one that you give up at your peril. Not that the Catholic church in particular has much moral high ground left but at least they did this, good for them.

ousta 11y ago
the thing your kind of people (which is the majority of people in the western world) will never understand is that barbary will always win against democracy. It is by saying sorry, teaching to people that you opressed them, enslaved them, telling them that they are a minority living with less chances and opportunities than a random "white man" well those same people will hate you for this, they will always see you as their enemy -just look at BLM in usa, the riots in french suburbs- and you gave them the tools. Hell I am myself a minority - coming from a muslim country - and get this because I lived in the suburbs of France and saw the global mindset of people there. This is a war of civilisations and way of life. and trust me. the peaceful one, the one that always say sorry for everything is not going to win.
- anu_gupta 11y ago
  > that barbary will always win against democracy It's a shame that your argument fails in the first sentence.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  > This is a war of civilisations and way of life. and trust me. the peaceful one, the one that always say sorry for everything is not going to win. As long as you see the world in terms of 'your kind of people' and 'my kind of people' you are to some degree part of the problem. This is not a war of 'civilizations', though it could very well turn into one if we lose our calm. Unfortunately, given the technological edge and the willingness to defend 'my kind of people' will eventually - reluctantly, hopefully - switch to a different mode which will make the crusades look like a picnic outing. The problem is that IS and company are waking something up that they have absolutely no way to deal with and it would be far better for everybody involved if this did not come to pass. But with the number of people clamoring to have this out by the bikeshed it may already be too late. Until then 'our kind of people' should do their best to derail this conflict before it becomes mass-murder/civil war on an unprecedented scale and to find another solution.
  - saiya-jin 11y ago
    but... don't you see this is exactly what they are striving for? you don't blow up yourself on stadium or in cafe to defeat a country, and not to conquer it in any way. no sane jihadist (and high ranks are probably pretty clever folks) would expect that. the goal is simple - create chaos, increase tension between europeans and immigrants, create a spirale of violence producing more violence, till every side has good reasons to not step back. this is goal of jihad in europe, footsoldiers will be people already living here, that initially were living peaceful life, but eventually some violence will drag them in. at the end, civil war. France for example could actually avoid that, if it retreated from all its military interventions, but that's not going to happen, and again, jihadists realize that too. I must agree with parent poster, nice approach ain't going to solve this, and victor at the end will be probably the more ruthless one. But fear not, as they say we're 7 days to the wolves, and we europeans can still kick a butt or two if pressed hard. I hope I am wrong, that's for sure :)
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      I agree that this is what they are striving for, which is the one reason not to give it to them. Escalation is exactly the goal since it will allow them to drive an even bigger wedge into our societies and between people that have been living here peacefully for decades.
- seivan 11y ago
  I agree with you. I my family and I also grew up in an islamic enclave. We saw the hell it caused. Pretty much all ex-muslims by now. People like the parent will never understand and will keep insinuating you're racist and they are brilliantly anti-racist. I am going to ask you to give up.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > People like the parent will never understand and will keep insinuating you're racist and they are brilliantly anti-racist. I'm not insinuating he's racist, do not put words in my mouth.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  >barbary will always win against democracy. Perhaps, but probably not the kind of barbarism that you're thinking about. The barbarians that win over democracy will use economic forces to enslave its own citizens, and will use the productivity of the citizens to produce resources and weapons, and use those to take what they want. Some would argue that this has already happened. >just look at BLM in usa What about them? They're not barbarians, just noisy protesters. >This is a war of civilisations and way of life. No one from the US will keep you from living even what they consider a barbaric way of life as long as you sell your oil cheap. >and trust me. the peaceful one, the one that always say sorry for everything is not going to win. Maybe you're not referring to the US. I haven't noticed us to be very peaceful over the last thirty years.
vixen99 11y ago
Only my opinion but I'd rather be a survivor to discuss the finer points of morality later on than have the supposed moral edge right now prior to my dispatch.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Chances are overwhelmingly in favor of you being a survivor, media messages to the contrary.

alvarosm 11y ago

He doesn't care. In his view we're guilty of everything. In the end, sadly, he's just another primitive religious zealot, not unlike the ones who decapitate people.

dang 11y ago
Personal attacks are not allowed on HN. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.