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"Seat size penalties" in airfare search engines will not work. The airlines have learned, often the hard way, that besides price, absolutely no other factors of

"Seat size penalties" in airfare search engines will not work. The airlines have learned, often the hard way, that besides price, absolutely no other factors of any sort whatsoever are relevant. The vast majority of travelers will claim in surveys that they care about things like legroom, good service, not paying extra for a bag, etc., but then the instant you put them in front of a search page to choose a flight they proceed to choose based on price, only price and nothing but price. Business travelers have higher standards, but they're simply drowned out -- Scott Kirby (President of American Airlines) was recently quoted in media as claiming that, among unique passengers carried by AA, 87% fly one trip per year or less, and those flyers account for over half of the airline's revenue. Tellingly, this was used to justify AA joining Delta in rolling out a super-bare-bones fare class designed to compete for the "choose based on price and only price" market, and carrying similar restrictions and conditions to the standard tickets of the ultra-low-cost carriers like Spirit and Allegiant. As an aside, it will be interesting to watch how this plays out in the next couple of years; Delta, which is generally the leader in implementing major changes among the three remaining big legacy carriers, has just announced changes which make their small number of extra-legroom coach seats, previously free for people holding status in their frequent-flier program, much harder to get without buying a ticket in a higher fare class (effectively, they now will sell those seats as a separate "premium economy" style cabin and fare, despite being neither a separate cabin nor anywhere close to the actual premium-economy offerings of European airlines). Since most business travelers are required to book into lower fare classes, on Delta they'll be forced into knee-and-spine-crushing seats. Whether that will lead to decision-makers at those companies switching their contracts away from Delta, and thus finally claw back some ground from the ultra-price-sensitive race to the bottom prevailing in the industry, remains to be seen.

jessriedel 11y ago
Not sure if you're trying to disagree with me. (1) When people claim they care about X on surveys, but then don't back it up when they actually have to spend their own money, I trust the second measure as their "real" preference more than their first. (Lots of ways to justify this, but the single biggest one is just that survey answers are wildly inconsistent with each other.) (2) Insofar as preference depend on nudges/framing -- that is, insofar as preferences aren't even uniquely defined -- then you need to actually test the various nudge. Seat size penalties have never been tried, so your claim that "evidence says people won't look at anything but price" isn't valid. Maybe you didn't understand what I meant by this? The whole point is to adjust the price on the search page to incorporate those other factors. If, in this situation, people continue to seek out tiny seats, then by golly, I think we should conclude that those seats represent their true preferences. I think everything else you've written is also consistent with my primary claim, which is that we should not legislate seat sizes. I appreciate the other info, though.
- Someone1234 11y ago
  Hard to see where you're coming from when from your perspective everyone has tons of excess money laying around and simply chooses not to spend it. Did it ever occur to you that maybe everyone else isn't as affluent as you clearly are? We don't choose not to fly in first because we are saving for a Ferrari or a cruise, or whatever you rich people buy. If economy wasn't available at the price it is available at then we literally wouldn't be able to fly AT ALL. That's where a lot of people are at financially, they can afford one return ticket a year, in economy. This only gets more obvious when you look at a family of four... You'll wind up paying as much for the Premium Economy upgrade (4x) as you would for a used car ($5K+). Did your parents give you a "small one million dollar loan" too?
- ubernostrum 11y ago
  Insofar as preference depend on nudges/framing -- that is, insofar as preferences aren't even uniquely defined -- then you need to actually test the various nudge. The airlines already have the ability to "nudge" and "frame"; the big three legacy carriers in the US all have flight-search interfaces which show you the different types of fares and highlight the conveniences that come with them. People still just pick whichever one is cheapest and then complain about how awful it is. Two of the three big legacies have, as I noted, already begun the rollout of ultra-bare-bones no-conveniences fares for this very reason: they have the data and they know what works. I think everything else you've written is also consistent with my primary claim, which is that we should not legislate seat sizes. I appreciate the other info, though. I think we are at or near the point where seat pitch and size will need to be legislated, not for comfort but for safety. As I understand it, many safety tests (such as verifying emergency evacuation within a required minimum time) on airliners are already conducted using cabin arrangements with significantly higher pitch than is typical for actual aircraft in service. And as seat pitch decreases various flying-induced medical conditions either become more likely or are exacerbated. And when something is affecting safety, I will absolutely support legislation to deal with that.
  - jessriedel 11y ago
    From your first point ("show you the different types of fares and highlight the conveniences that come with them"), it's clear that you don't understand what I'm proposing. Your second point about safety is a completely separate issue.

jessriedel 11y ago

Not sure if you're trying to disagree with me. (1) When people claim they care about X on surveys, but then don't back it up when they actually have to spend their own money, I trust the second measure as their "real" preference more than their first. (Lots of ways to justify this, but the single biggest one is just that survey answers are wildly inconsistent with each other.) (2) Insofar as preference depend on nudges/framing -- that is, insofar as preferences aren't even uniquely defined -- then you need to actually test the various nudge. Seat size penalties have never been tried, so your claim that "evidence says people won't look at anything but price" isn't valid. Maybe you didn't understand what I meant by this? The whole point is to adjust the price on the search page to incorporate those other factors. If, in this situation, people continue to seek out tiny seats, then by golly, I think we should conclude that those seats represent their true preferences. I think everything else you've written is also consistent with my primary claim, which is that we should not legislate seat sizes. I appreciate the other info, though.

Someone1234 11y ago
Hard to see where you're coming from when from your perspective everyone has tons of excess money laying around and simply chooses not to spend it. Did it ever occur to you that maybe everyone else isn't as affluent as you clearly are? We don't choose not to fly in first because we are saving for a Ferrari or a cruise, or whatever you rich people buy. If economy wasn't available at the price it is available at then we literally wouldn't be able to fly AT ALL. That's where a lot of people are at financially, they can afford one return ticket a year, in economy. This only gets more obvious when you look at a family of four... You'll wind up paying as much for the Premium Economy upgrade (4x) as you would for a used car ($5K+). Did your parents give you a "small one million dollar loan" too?
ubernostrum 11y ago
Insofar as preference depend on nudges/framing -- that is, insofar as preferences aren't even uniquely defined -- then you need to actually test the various nudge. The airlines already have the ability to "nudge" and "frame"; the big three legacy carriers in the US all have flight-search interfaces which show you the different types of fares and highlight the conveniences that come with them. People still just pick whichever one is cheapest and then complain about how awful it is. Two of the three big legacies have, as I noted, already begun the rollout of ultra-bare-bones no-conveniences fares for this very reason: they have the data and they know what works. I think everything else you've written is also consistent with my primary claim, which is that we should not legislate seat sizes. I appreciate the other info, though. I think we are at or near the point where seat pitch and size will need to be legislated, not for comfort but for safety. As I understand it, many safety tests (such as verifying emergency evacuation within a required minimum time) on airliners are already conducted using cabin arrangements with significantly higher pitch than is typical for actual aircraft in service. And as seat pitch decreases various flying-induced medical conditions either become more likely or are exacerbated. And when something is affecting safety, I will absolutely support legislation to deal with that.
- jessriedel 11y ago
  From your first point ("show you the different types of fares and highlight the conveniences that come with them"), it's clear that you don't understand what I'm proposing. Your second point about safety is a completely separate issue.