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Augh! I'm seeing this more and more. This was a fine comment. It was not a troll; it was not rude. I personally don't agree with it, but voting is not for agree

Augh! I'm seeing this more and more. This was a fine comment. It was not a troll; it was not rude. I personally don't agree with it, but voting is not for agreement or disagreement. That's what responses are for. Don't downvote comments which aren't trollish or otherwise rude just because you disagree with them. (Background: this comment was downvoted. I've seen this happen at least 5 times in the past two days, it annoyed me, I commented.)

javert 17y ago
In general, I agree with you. But you can downvote for dishonesty in a comment, and the poster is advocating dishonesty. Not the same thing, but related. I think an argument can be made that that particular comment crossed the line and can be downvoted. For example, you said that you believe a comment can be downvoted for being rude. I agree. But advocating dishoesty, I think, is far worse than being rude.
- PieSquared 17y ago
  Nah. Advocating dishonesty is okay. It's a legit point of view, if you don't like it, say so. He wasn't being dishonest, after all, only advocating it. Also, it's ironic that your comment was downvoted.
- nostrademons 17y ago
  So, if a girl asks you if she looks pretty, and you think she doesn't, what do you tell her?
  - sorbits 17y ago
    If it is your loved one asking then tell her why you love her.
    - pmichaud 17y ago
      You haven't ever tried this, have you?
      - whatusername 17y ago
        Criticism should always be specific. (And should suggest a way to re-mediate the issue) No: "You look fat", "You suck at maths", "RTFM" Yes: "That dress is wrong for your body. It makes you look fat. Try this one", "You need to work on your fractions more - here; I'll help", "Rather than asking it here, this manual over here (link) answers your questions. Try chapter 5" // I forgot to add a reason. Truth is important. I'm much harsher on those that I love than strangers - the reason is that hearing any truth gives you an opportunity to grow. I never lie to my wife / close friends because I care about them, and not just about their feelings. I'd rather hurt their feelings in the short term, than damage them in the long term.
  - javert 17y ago
    The truth
- barrkel 17y ago
  I think you're drawing a bright white line where there doesn't deserve to be one. White lies aren't "dishonesty"; they're essential social manners for getting along with people. Taken to the limit, in a drunken aggressive situation, white lies may save your life. What annoys me more, though, is that you seem to be making a moral argument rather than a rational argument. Morals that are not backed by reason are on shaky grounds. And the great-grandparent was arguing by example that lying is sometimes not immoral. You can't counter that kind of argument by saying, in effect, that lying is wrong, that's that, and your argument is therefore worthless and should be downvoted.
  - pingswept 17y ago
    Morals that are not backed by reason are on shaky grounds. I'd say that's exactly what the moral realm is-- the area where reason fails us. Like you, I don't see much point in arguing about non-rational propositions; it's just two people contradicting each other. I disagree with you about "white lies," though. In the limit, sure, I'd lie to save my brother from kidnapping, or that sort of thing. But most of the time, I'd rather deal in the truth, even if it makes people a little unhappier in the short term. For example, I'd rather hear "Your startup has serious problems X, Y, and Z that you had better fix before you launch," than "Looks great. I'm sure it will be bigger than Google," if the problems are really there.
    - astrec 17y ago
      Sure, but 30 seconds before you pitch that startup is it more beneficial to hear "Pingswept you look great!" or "Pingswept that zit on your nose really detracts from your presentation." White lies have a certain social utility.
      - pingswept 17y ago
        I realize that there are people who are motivated by that kind of vapid encouragement, or discouraged by superficial criticism. I'd rather hear the truth, even if it's painful. I'm not saying that right before an important presentation, I'd like to hear the recitation of an index of my shortcomings-- I'd rather hear a list of my strengths. But I don't think false praise is helpful.

javert 17y ago

In general, I agree with you. But you can downvote for dishonesty in a comment, and the poster is advocating dishonesty. Not the same thing, but related. I think an argument can be made that that particular comment crossed the line and can be downvoted. For example, you said that you believe a comment can be downvoted for being rude. I agree. But advocating dishoesty, I think, is far worse than being rude.

PieSquared 17y ago
Nah. Advocating dishonesty is okay. It's a legit point of view, if you don't like it, say so. He wasn't being dishonest, after all, only advocating it. Also, it's ironic that your comment was downvoted.
nostrademons 17y ago
So, if a girl asks you if she looks pretty, and you think she doesn't, what do you tell her?
- sorbits 17y ago
  If it is your loved one asking then tell her why you love her.
  - pmichaud 17y ago
    You haven't ever tried this, have you?
    - whatusername 17y ago
      Criticism should always be specific. (And should suggest a way to re-mediate the issue) No: "You look fat", "You suck at maths", "RTFM" Yes: "That dress is wrong for your body. It makes you look fat. Try this one", "You need to work on your fractions more - here; I'll help", "Rather than asking it here, this manual over here (link) answers your questions. Try chapter 5" // I forgot to add a reason. Truth is important. I'm much harsher on those that I love than strangers - the reason is that hearing any truth gives you an opportunity to grow. I never lie to my wife / close friends because I care about them, and not just about their feelings. I'd rather hurt their feelings in the short term, than damage them in the long term.
- javert 17y ago
  The truth
barrkel 17y ago
I think you're drawing a bright white line where there doesn't deserve to be one. White lies aren't "dishonesty"; they're essential social manners for getting along with people. Taken to the limit, in a drunken aggressive situation, white lies may save your life. What annoys me more, though, is that you seem to be making a moral argument rather than a rational argument. Morals that are not backed by reason are on shaky grounds. And the great-grandparent was arguing by example that lying is sometimes not immoral. You can't counter that kind of argument by saying, in effect, that lying is wrong, that's that, and your argument is therefore worthless and should be downvoted.
- pingswept 17y ago
  Morals that are not backed by reason are on shaky grounds. I'd say that's exactly what the moral realm is-- the area where reason fails us. Like you, I don't see much point in arguing about non-rational propositions; it's just two people contradicting each other. I disagree with you about "white lies," though. In the limit, sure, I'd lie to save my brother from kidnapping, or that sort of thing. But most of the time, I'd rather deal in the truth, even if it makes people a little unhappier in the short term. For example, I'd rather hear "Your startup has serious problems X, Y, and Z that you had better fix before you launch," than "Looks great. I'm sure it will be bigger than Google," if the problems are really there.
  - astrec 17y ago
    Sure, but 30 seconds before you pitch that startup is it more beneficial to hear "Pingswept you look great!" or "Pingswept that zit on your nose really detracts from your presentation." White lies have a certain social utility.
    - pingswept 17y ago
      I realize that there are people who are motivated by that kind of vapid encouragement, or discouraged by superficial criticism. I'd rather hear the truth, even if it's painful. I'm not saying that right before an important presentation, I'd like to hear the recitation of an index of my shortcomings-- I'd rather hear a list of my strengths. But I don't think false praise is helpful.