4 ms·

Google and China: Flowers for a funeral

14 points by seldo 17y ago

chrischen 17y ago
People in China are quite aware of the fact that the "thought police" are out there, and poke fun at it all the time. They also know they are a developing country. I hypothesize that the government gets away with this only because it's still developing, and not enough people care about political stuff like this... yet.
- jrockway 17y ago
  Yeah, people in developed countries like the US and the UK have no tolerance for letting the government get away with stuff like this. When the PATRIOT Act was passed in the US, there were riots in the streets that shut down major cities for days. Eventually tanks had to be called in to put a stop to the riots. Oh wait. (As soon as people's daily lives get good enough for them to have some free time for watching TV or owning a yacht, they stop caring about what the government is doing.)
  - chrischen 17y ago
    > As soon as people's daily lives get good enough for them to have some free time for watching TV or owning a yacht, they stop caring about what the government is doing. Free time has different effects on different people. Perhaps that's what your personal experience has led you to believe, but for me, and quite many others in the developed world, free time has freed us from constant thoughts about satisfying our basic needs, and allows us to contemplate higher levels of needs like "political correctness," "ethics and equality," "freedom of speech," and "technology startups." It's probably also why the super-elite are the liberal do-gooders and political leaders. They don't have to worry about finding a job and "making it" or scavenging for food or shelter. Of course there are some with too much free time but explore it in other ways. Hippies, socialites, druggies, and startup founders I think are also examples of what happens when we satisfy basic needs and seek a higher meaning to life. It also depends on your intellectual level. But the point is that free time allows the upper-echelons of society to dwell on issues like freedom of speech, not necessarily all people though. So in China there will be some people who are comfortable enough and start seeking more out of life. But for my relatives and pretty much all the current older generation they don't care. The younger people will probably start caring, but the older ones are just glad it's not like it was when they were children anymore. They probably just want the burden to be passed to their children... and so it will. But until my generation starts taking over completely, most of China's backwards policies will be mostly ignored by the people. Who knows, China's policies might even be superior and they might just keep it up. I'm kind of scared of the implications to be honest. What if China, which has over a billion in population, creates a government sponsored organization that starts operating in an unregulated free market. Wouldn't it have an advantage in that economy over a multitude of separately competing entities? (sorry for slightly changing the topic. I always wanted to ask this)
    - mike_mc 17y ago
      one big company really has never shown to be better then smaller companies except for in speed of product to market. And for big companies to rule absolutely it usually requires some previous legal corruption that creates a monopoly. So basically China would have to be the world government in order to get that foot hold. Second regulation is an illusion , its a combinaiton of people doing their job and people playing nice. These dont always occur together and when the both dont occur you have deregulation or corruption. Also if there was to be one super company weather china or us or anyone it would be too big to regulate all the smallest parts so in effect corruption would occur within and against the huge company. Basically its impossible to control everyone. Read 'Multitude' its a social fact , kind of.
      - chrischen 17y ago
        It's my understanding that a government run health care company would be more efficient and powerful, by diluting risk across the nation, and could easily drive the current private insurance companies out of business or hurt them tremendously. So if such a company backed by China's mass was slipped into the US market, assuming no regulation, wouldn't it have an advantage?
- potatolicious 17y ago
  You're right, people in China are aware of this - and they bring it up all the time... but God help you if you (as a foreigner) do. It's a common mentality with the Chinese (speaking as one myself)... only you are allowed to criticize your kind, any outside criticism is presumptuous and arrogant. This attitude pisses me off, since it prevents us from learning from everyone else on this rock.
  - est 17y ago
    > only you are allowed to criticize your kind, any outside criticism is presumptuous and arrogant. This attitude pisses me off, since it prevents us from learning from everyone else on this rock. Well it's generally true, one important factor is the Chinese way of thinking & culture is very different from the western. Chinese has their own definition of good and evil. It's easy to understand western beliefs, but it's damn hard to practice them. Currently there's a trend on the Internet, that it's patriotism to damage foreign companies, no matter what kind of dirty method you use. For patriotism, any kind of line can be crossed. Another example is Chinese people actively reject the idea of universal values no matter what content they are. I remember not long time ago a Party official speaks to media , calls 'human right' an American thing, even though it's ridiculous and laughed at after this made public, but it largely reflects part of Chinese subconscious mind. There's no extend of human rights in Chinese history & culture, or rarely advocated. In my theory, this is a language barrier. Universal Values, human rights, democracy are all looks clumsy foreign concepts, it's not native at all, it looks like you are running a GTK app on Windows. It functions but it looks odd. To pass these ideas and stuff to China, I think direct porting (aka, translating and interpreting) is very ineffective, it has to be rewritten from the source code level, and use native Chinese APIs :)
    - chrischen 17y ago
      However on issues like Tibet, pretty much all my Chinese friends, whether they grew up there or in the US, backed the government. I think despite everything they're still quite patriotic. Probably due to a lack of understanding that an illegitimate government is an entity seperate from the Chinese people. They almost back the government as if it's a duty tof being Chinese.
netcan 17y ago
It kind of caught me off guard hearing Techcrunch quoted in the Economist. Kind of like having your mother buying Twilight stickers.

14 points by seldo 17y ago

People in China are quite aware of the fact that the "thought police" are out there, and poke fun at it all the time. They also know they are a developing country. I hypothesize that the government gets away with this only because it's still developing, and not enough people care about political stuff like this... yet.

jrockway 17y ago
Yeah, people in developed countries like the US and the UK have no tolerance for letting the government get away with stuff like this. When the PATRIOT Act was passed in the US, there were riots in the streets that shut down major cities for days. Eventually tanks had to be called in to put a stop to the riots. Oh wait. (As soon as people's daily lives get good enough for them to have some free time for watching TV or owning a yacht, they stop caring about what the government is doing.)
- chrischen 17y ago
  > As soon as people's daily lives get good enough for them to have some free time for watching TV or owning a yacht, they stop caring about what the government is doing. Free time has different effects on different people. Perhaps that's what your personal experience has led you to believe, but for me, and quite many others in the developed world, free time has freed us from constant thoughts about satisfying our basic needs, and allows us to contemplate higher levels of needs like "political correctness," "ethics and equality," "freedom of speech," and "technology startups." It's probably also why the super-elite are the liberal do-gooders and political leaders. They don't have to worry about finding a job and "making it" or scavenging for food or shelter. Of course there are some with too much free time but explore it in other ways. Hippies, socialites, druggies, and startup founders I think are also examples of what happens when we satisfy basic needs and seek a higher meaning to life. It also depends on your intellectual level. But the point is that free time allows the upper-echelons of society to dwell on issues like freedom of speech, not necessarily all people though. So in China there will be some people who are comfortable enough and start seeking more out of life. But for my relatives and pretty much all the current older generation they don't care. The younger people will probably start caring, but the older ones are just glad it's not like it was when they were children anymore. They probably just want the burden to be passed to their children... and so it will. But until my generation starts taking over completely, most of China's backwards policies will be mostly ignored by the people. Who knows, China's policies might even be superior and they might just keep it up. I'm kind of scared of the implications to be honest. What if China, which has over a billion in population, creates a government sponsored organization that starts operating in an unregulated free market. Wouldn't it have an advantage in that economy over a multitude of separately competing entities? (sorry for slightly changing the topic. I always wanted to ask this)
  - mike_mc 17y ago
    one big company really has never shown to be better then smaller companies except for in speed of product to market. And for big companies to rule absolutely it usually requires some previous legal corruption that creates a monopoly. So basically China would have to be the world government in order to get that foot hold. Second regulation is an illusion , its a combinaiton of people doing their job and people playing nice. These dont always occur together and when the both dont occur you have deregulation or corruption. Also if there was to be one super company weather china or us or anyone it would be too big to regulate all the smallest parts so in effect corruption would occur within and against the huge company. Basically its impossible to control everyone. Read 'Multitude' its a social fact , kind of.
    - chrischen 17y ago
      It's my understanding that a government run health care company would be more efficient and powerful, by diluting risk across the nation, and could easily drive the current private insurance companies out of business or hurt them tremendously. So if such a company backed by China's mass was slipped into the US market, assuming no regulation, wouldn't it have an advantage?
potatolicious 17y ago
You're right, people in China are aware of this - and they bring it up all the time... but God help you if you (as a foreigner) do. It's a common mentality with the Chinese (speaking as one myself)... only you are allowed to criticize your kind, any outside criticism is presumptuous and arrogant. This attitude pisses me off, since it prevents us from learning from everyone else on this rock.
- est 17y ago
  > only you are allowed to criticize your kind, any outside criticism is presumptuous and arrogant. This attitude pisses me off, since it prevents us from learning from everyone else on this rock. Well it's generally true, one important factor is the Chinese way of thinking & culture is very different from the western. Chinese has their own definition of good and evil. It's easy to understand western beliefs, but it's damn hard to practice them. Currently there's a trend on the Internet, that it's patriotism to damage foreign companies, no matter what kind of dirty method you use. For patriotism, any kind of line can be crossed. Another example is Chinese people actively reject the idea of universal values no matter what content they are. I remember not long time ago a Party official speaks to media , calls 'human right' an American thing, even though it's ridiculous and laughed at after this made public, but it largely reflects part of Chinese subconscious mind. There's no extend of human rights in Chinese history & culture, or rarely advocated. In my theory, this is a language barrier. Universal Values, human rights, democracy are all looks clumsy foreign concepts, it's not native at all, it looks like you are running a GTK app on Windows. It functions but it looks odd. To pass these ideas and stuff to China, I think direct porting (aka, translating and interpreting) is very ineffective, it has to be rewritten from the source code level, and use native Chinese APIs :)
  - chrischen 17y ago
    However on issues like Tibet, pretty much all my Chinese friends, whether they grew up there or in the US, backed the government. I think despite everything they're still quite patriotic. Probably due to a lack of understanding that an illegitimate government is an entity seperate from the Chinese people. They almost back the government as if it's a duty tof being Chinese.

netcan 17y ago

It kind of caught me off guard hearing Techcrunch quoted in the Economist. Kind of like having your mother buying Twilight stickers.