4 ms·

The thing that always kills me on new Java projects is wading through these enormous hierarchies of folders full of interface classes just to find one actual li

by rcurry 11y ago

The thing that always kills me on new Java projects is wading through these enormous hierarchies of folders full of interface classes just to find one actual line of implementation code. Of course, right after that one line of implementation code there's an invocation of some other interface class that then leads me on the next goose chase to find line 2. I think it's not so much a problem of verbosity as it is this sort of "Enterprise FizzBuzz" mentality that crept into Java over the years. Some of this IOC stuff gets so far out of hand that I feel like I'm in the House of Mirrors at the local carnival when I first start trying to walk through a new code base.

pjmlp 11y ago
Hence why IDEs with their code navigation tools rule.
- mercurial 11y ago
  Yeah, I don't know. Java developers need IDEs like Rob Ford needs crack cocaine, but it's more a comment on the deficiencies of the language than the purported benefits of an IDE.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    IDEs were created for Interlisp-D, Smalltalk and Mesa/Cedar. Were popularized in the PC, Amiga and NeXT eco-systems, thanks to Turbo Pascal, Delphi, VB, AMOS, GFA, Objective-C, Eiffel, Oberon, ... Java wasn't even a thing in those days.
    - mercurial 11y ago
      That's not the point. Due to its verbosity, it's impractical to use Java without an IDE. That's not necessarily the case for more compact languages.
      - pjmlp 11y ago
        Programs are written once, read multiple times.
        bad_user 11y ago
        Would be curious to find out what that means, since I see it repeated many times in favor of mainstream and verbose languages, such as Java. I get it to mean somehow that Java is more readable, however in my experience that doesn't make sense, as the IDE can deal with generating the boilerplate, but the IDE cannot help with readability. Not even if you include quick navigation by click, since that has been the purpose of ctags in plain editors.
        mercurial 11y ago
        Eclipse folds the import section, and you can get the type of a value by hovering over it, but apart from that, I'm not sure.
        pjmlp 11y ago
        It means that anyone strange to the code is able to pick a pile of printouts and have a ruff understanding of the code. Which is very hard in languages that are a pile of hieroglyphics. This is very important in teams of 50+ developers, scattered around countries with high attrition rate, having various skill levels. Also generating boilerplate is just 1% of what an IDE is capable of.
        bad_user 11y ago
        The mathematical language is a "pile of hieroglyphics", yet mathematicians can speak it just fine. And in fact without their domain specific language mathematics would be much, much harder to deal with. We know this because the mathematical language in use today is newer than the discipline of mathematics and we can make a before and after comparison. Personally I don't understand why some programmers insist on communicating only in english words. First of all because english words suffer from the problems of natural language, which is that natural language is imprecise, with the words having multiple meanings depending on surrounding context. For example when adding two numbers, should you use "add" or should you use "plus"? As it may be, "add" is actually incorrect according to its precise English definition, because the operation doesn't necessarily lead to increasing the size or amount. Yet this does not stop people from using it. Fortunately classes like BigDecimal are using "plus", yet I don't get why in the world would anybody think that "x.plus(y.multiply(z))" is more readable than "x + y * z". You might thing picking on BigDecimal is a cheap shot. Well, how about the well known "ListUtils.union(a, b)" and why would that be better than "a ++ b". Speaking of "ListUtils.union", joining 2 lists is not a union, as union is in the context of sets or maps. Joining 2 lists is a concatenation and that matters, because concatenation is not commutative, whereas a union (of 2 sets or maps) is commutative. Basically the Apache Commons folks have got the naming wrong and if such mistakes happen in libraries that are so public, guess what happens inside corporate projects. But much more problematic in languages like Java is not the wording as much as the way the logic is often expressed. In a functional programming language you usually get pure expressions that operate on immutable data-structures, pure as in true mathematical functions (for the same input you always get the same output). Such functions are much easier to reason about and much easier to test, because the output does not depend on some object's history (or in other words, an object's identity). The worst and most unreadable code I've ever seen was written in Java, a language in which people often pass around mutable data-structures, like arrays, modifying them on the spot, for no good reason other than not knowing any better, in a dance of mutation that can only be considered an abomination of nature, with code so obtuse that it would make grown men cry. It's not uncommon for pieces of code to be commented with "here be dragons" with people no longer understanding what it does. Couple that with "enterprise design patterns" based primarily on IoC containers and best practices spawned from hell, with deep layers of inheritance that don't make sense and with chronic multi-threading issues and you've got a recipe for disaster. And you don't even have to search for proof for too long. Take any reasonably sized open-source project and you'll see this fact in all its glory. The last Java open-source project I interacted with is SpyMemcached and is a fine example of a Java project that works, that does its job well, that is reasonably well maintained, but that has internals that expose all the problems that I just mentioned. And sometimes I wonder why anything written in Java works at all, my guess being simply that people hit that code with the hammer until it quacks, in a process that resembles more natural evolution and mutation rather than engineering. Therefore I'm personally dumbfounded by claims of readability. And in regards to the capabilities of an IDE, I do use IntelliJ IDEA, but I am wondering what the other 99% of its capabilities are, preferably that help with readability. Syntax highlighting?

by rcurry 11y ago

pjmlp 11y ago

Hence why IDEs with their code navigation tools rule.

mercurial 11y ago
Yeah, I don't know. Java developers need IDEs like Rob Ford needs crack cocaine, but it's more a comment on the deficiencies of the language than the purported benefits of an IDE.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  IDEs were created for Interlisp-D, Smalltalk and Mesa/Cedar. Were popularized in the PC, Amiga and NeXT eco-systems, thanks to Turbo Pascal, Delphi, VB, AMOS, GFA, Objective-C, Eiffel, Oberon, ... Java wasn't even a thing in those days.
  - mercurial 11y ago
    That's not the point. Due to its verbosity, it's impractical to use Java without an IDE. That's not necessarily the case for more compact languages.
    - pjmlp 11y ago
      Programs are written once, read multiple times.
      - bad_user 11y ago
        Would be curious to find out what that means, since I see it repeated many times in favor of mainstream and verbose languages, such as Java. I get it to mean somehow that Java is more readable, however in my experience that doesn't make sense, as the IDE can deal with generating the boilerplate, but the IDE cannot help with readability. Not even if you include quick navigation by click, since that has been the purpose of ctags in plain editors.
        mercurial 11y ago
        Eclipse folds the import section, and you can get the type of a value by hovering over it, but apart from that, I'm not sure.
        pjmlp 11y ago
        It means that anyone strange to the code is able to pick a pile of printouts and have a ruff understanding of the code. Which is very hard in languages that are a pile of hieroglyphics. This is very important in teams of 50+ developers, scattered around countries with high attrition rate, having various skill levels. Also generating boilerplate is just 1% of what an IDE is capable of.
        bad_user 11y ago
        The mathematical language is a "pile of hieroglyphics", yet mathematicians can speak it just fine. And in fact without their domain specific language mathematics would be much, much harder to deal with. We know this because the mathematical language in use today is newer than the discipline of mathematics and we can make a before and after comparison. Personally I don't understand why some programmers insist on communicating only in english words. First of all because english words suffer from the problems of natural language, which is that natural language is imprecise, with the words having multiple meanings depending on surrounding context. For example when adding two numbers, should you use "add" or should you use "plus"? As it may be, "add" is actually incorrect according to its precise English definition, because the operation doesn't necessarily lead to increasing the size or amount. Yet this does not stop people from using it. Fortunately classes like BigDecimal are using "plus", yet I don't get why in the world would anybody think that "x.plus(y.multiply(z))" is more readable than "x + y * z". You might thing picking on BigDecimal is a cheap shot. Well, how about the well known "ListUtils.union(a, b)" and why would that be better than "a ++ b". Speaking of "ListUtils.union", joining 2 lists is not a union, as union is in the context of sets or maps. Joining 2 lists is a concatenation and that matters, because concatenation is not commutative, whereas a union (of 2 sets or maps) is commutative. Basically the Apache Commons folks have got the naming wrong and if such mistakes happen in libraries that are so public, guess what happens inside corporate projects. But much more problematic in languages like Java is not the wording as much as the way the logic is often expressed. In a functional programming language you usually get pure expressions that operate on immutable data-structures, pure as in true mathematical functions (for the same input you always get the same output). Such functions are much easier to reason about and much easier to test, because the output does not depend on some object's history (or in other words, an object's identity). The worst and most unreadable code I've ever seen was written in Java, a language in which people often pass around mutable data-structures, like arrays, modifying them on the spot, for no good reason other than not knowing any better, in a dance of mutation that can only be considered an abomination of nature, with code so obtuse that it would make grown men cry. It's not uncommon for pieces of code to be commented with "here be dragons" with people no longer understanding what it does. Couple that with "enterprise design patterns" based primarily on IoC containers and best practices spawned from hell, with deep layers of inheritance that don't make sense and with chronic multi-threading issues and you've got a recipe for disaster. And you don't even have to search for proof for too long. Take any reasonably sized open-source project and you'll see this fact in all its glory. The last Java open-source project I interacted with is SpyMemcached and is a fine example of a Java project that works, that does its job well, that is reasonably well maintained, but that has internals that expose all the problems that I just mentioned. And sometimes I wonder why anything written in Java works at all, my guess being simply that people hit that code with the hammer until it quacks, in a process that resembles more natural evolution and mutation rather than engineering. Therefore I'm personally dumbfounded by claims of readability. And in regards to the capabilities of an IDE, I do use IntelliJ IDEA, but I am wondering what the other 99% of its capabilities are, preferably that help with readability. Syntax highlighting?