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NO NO NO Let's end the myth that Western foreign policy is (solely) to blame. What about Islamic terrorists killing people in Southern Thailand? Is there som

by notsony 11y ago

NO NO NO Let's end the myth that Western foreign policy is (solely) to blame. What about Islamic terrorists killing people in Southern Thailand? Is there something wrong with their foreign policy? What about Islamic terrorists killing Filipinos for the past 20-30 years? Have Christians been oppressing Muslims over there? What about the recent clashes between Muslims and Buddhist monks in Burma? What did the monks do wrong? Radical Islam is a GLOBAL jihad movement.

tomelders 11y ago
Wastern foreign policy absolutely is to blame. You need to look at it on a timeline of a century to get the complete picture.
pan69 11y ago
Radical Islam has become a global jihad movement and it was created by the west interfering in the middle east.
- iofj 11y ago
  Because it's not like attacks like this weren't committed by muslims before ? In reality they've been at it since the early middle ages.
  - pan69 11y ago
    You mean those middle ages where a bunch of Christians went over to the middle east to kill a bunch of Muslims? You mean those middle ages?
    - iofj 11y ago
      First crusade: 1096 AD Muslim expansion wars: 736 AD In a way you're right, you've just got the agressor wrong. In fact the crusades were started because of muslim agression. Because, and I'm quoting muslim historical sources here "the blood of Christians was standing above our knees in Jerusalem".
      - pan69 11y ago
        Attention people! We found the problem! Apparently the Muslims did a big land grab about 1500 years ago or so (just like the Romans did before them) and that's, apparently, where it all started. Turns out it has nothing to do with the US foreign policy of the past 60 or so years, the creation of the state of Israel (and the Israelis being a bunch of dicks about it, and for the record, I'm most certainly NOT an anti Semite, though I'm allergic to assholes) and the British hopelessly trying to colonize Afghanistan throughout 1800's and a whole bunch of other dickhead moves by the west and their buddies. Apologies. I'm not trying to insult your (or anyone's) intelligence. I just couldn't resist... /sarcasm PS: I'm very much a westerner, white male, atheist, born and raised in the Netherlands and currently living in Australia, for what ever it's worth.
        iofj 11y ago
        Not sure how you can say this after claiming something so completely stupid as claiming muslims were provoked in the early middle ages into starting their expansion wars. History is not on your side, so you're now making the claim that history itself is ridiculous and worthless ? And even on those terms you cannot stop making the moronic claim. Whatever happened in 1800 did not provoke muslims into expanding, as muslim expansion wars and genocides predate the very nation you're talking about. But that's not what you're doing at all isn't it ? You're just so terrified by the simple explanation that it must be wrong. And damn causality, damn rational thought, fuck sanity, we can't be in this situation ! Any explanation is good enough just to think it's not true, any at all. You must make a great atheist. My claim is simple: it would be that the ideology itself is aggressive, and that friday's attacks and the original expansion wars, and all the wars and genocides committed by these people in between are all the result of this. This is the claim all of these terrorists make themselves, it is a claim you will find in plenty of history books, and it is what everybody would think if you merely erased the word "religion" from the question. Nobody would find this claim the least bit controversial if it were about a dozen political ideologies, but somehow this one ideology needs to be exempt, because it "hurts people's feelings". Like all terrorist organisations, the military arm of isis is tiny relative to the total organisation. Attacking that is useless, it's like attacking one of Goldman Sach's cleaning staff hoping it'll bring down the organization. In reality, of course that person will be replaced before you can blink. 99% of ISIS is in the west, in mosques in Holland and in Australia. Those need to be attacked if we're to stop this.
omginternets 11y ago
Exactly this. The elements for violence are baked into Islamic cannon in a way that has no equivalent in any other messianic religion. The west holds its share of blame, but so does Islam.
- DanBC 11y ago
  You ignore the hundreds of years of violence perpetrated in the names of other religions.
  - omginternets 11y ago
    No, I absolutely do not. What you are ignoring is that the canonical text of these religions are not equal. Where are the Tibetan suicide bombers? Ignoring the religious and theological basis for this violence is part of the reason we've been so ineffective in fighting it. Clearly social tensions are part of the problem, but so is the religion itself.
    - DanBC 11y ago
      Aum Shinryko drew upon Tibettan buddhist teachings. There are plenty of buddhist terrorist attacks, and these can be found with simple web searches. Tibetan armed struggle also happens, but because it's in China i) Chinese authority hides it ii) Chinese authority uses a too broad definition of terrorism. But there was armed resistance in 2008 in Lhassa.
      - omginternets 11y ago
        >There are plenty of buddhist terrorist attacks, and these can be found with simple web searches. There's a negligible number of buddhist terrorist attacks compared to muslim terrorist attacks. The position you're defending is absurd and betrays an a priori conclusion on your part.
        Natanael_L 11y ago
TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
And have you researched its origins? Have you looked into how it's funded, how it was funded, which countries support it now, and which countries supported it in the past? Perhaps the media equivalent of "Four legs good, two legs bad" is not a very insightful way to understand geopolitics and post-war history.
vezzy-fnord 11y ago
The Filipino-Moro conflict has a centuries long history that predates the modern jihadist movement, it's not a "past 20-30 years" thing. It's also hardly as one-sided as you're presenting it. The Spanish-American War was a significant externality in its escalation, go figure. True, Western foreign policy is not solely to blame. But it has definitely shown itself to have cumulative negative effects.
mbrock 11y ago
Yeah, what about Burma? You sound quite well-informed, so could you explain a bit about that history, and how it relates to the centuries of persecution of Muslims over there? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Myanmar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Myan...

by notsony 11y ago

tomelders 11y ago

Wastern foreign policy absolutely is to blame. You need to look at it on a timeline of a century to get the complete picture.

pan69 11y ago

Radical Islam has become a global jihad movement and it was created by the west interfering in the middle east.

iofj 11y ago
Because it's not like attacks like this weren't committed by muslims before ? In reality they've been at it since the early middle ages.
- pan69 11y ago
  You mean those middle ages where a bunch of Christians went over to the middle east to kill a bunch of Muslims? You mean those middle ages?
  - iofj 11y ago
    First crusade: 1096 AD Muslim expansion wars: 736 AD In a way you're right, you've just got the agressor wrong. In fact the crusades were started because of muslim agression. Because, and I'm quoting muslim historical sources here "the blood of Christians was standing above our knees in Jerusalem".
    - pan69 11y ago
      Attention people! We found the problem! Apparently the Muslims did a big land grab about 1500 years ago or so (just like the Romans did before them) and that's, apparently, where it all started. Turns out it has nothing to do with the US foreign policy of the past 60 or so years, the creation of the state of Israel (and the Israelis being a bunch of dicks about it, and for the record, I'm most certainly NOT an anti Semite, though I'm allergic to assholes) and the British hopelessly trying to colonize Afghanistan throughout 1800's and a whole bunch of other dickhead moves by the west and their buddies. Apologies. I'm not trying to insult your (or anyone's) intelligence. I just couldn't resist... /sarcasm PS: I'm very much a westerner, white male, atheist, born and raised in the Netherlands and currently living in Australia, for what ever it's worth.
      - iofj 11y ago
        Not sure how you can say this after claiming something so completely stupid as claiming muslims were provoked in the early middle ages into starting their expansion wars. History is not on your side, so you're now making the claim that history itself is ridiculous and worthless ? And even on those terms you cannot stop making the moronic claim. Whatever happened in 1800 did not provoke muslims into expanding, as muslim expansion wars and genocides predate the very nation you're talking about. But that's not what you're doing at all isn't it ? You're just so terrified by the simple explanation that it must be wrong. And damn causality, damn rational thought, fuck sanity, we can't be in this situation ! Any explanation is good enough just to think it's not true, any at all. You must make a great atheist. My claim is simple: it would be that the ideology itself is aggressive, and that friday's attacks and the original expansion wars, and all the wars and genocides committed by these people in between are all the result of this. This is the claim all of these terrorists make themselves, it is a claim you will find in plenty of history books, and it is what everybody would think if you merely erased the word "religion" from the question. Nobody would find this claim the least bit controversial if it were about a dozen political ideologies, but somehow this one ideology needs to be exempt, because it "hurts people's feelings". Like all terrorist organisations, the military arm of isis is tiny relative to the total organisation. Attacking that is useless, it's like attacking one of Goldman Sach's cleaning staff hoping it'll bring down the organization. In reality, of course that person will be replaced before you can blink. 99% of ISIS is in the west, in mosques in Holland and in Australia. Those need to be attacked if we're to stop this.

omginternets 11y ago

Exactly this. The elements for violence are baked into Islamic cannon in a way that has no equivalent in any other messianic religion. The west holds its share of blame, but so does Islam.

DanBC 11y ago
You ignore the hundreds of years of violence perpetrated in the names of other religions.
- omginternets 11y ago
  No, I absolutely do not. What you are ignoring is that the canonical text of these religions are not equal. Where are the Tibetan suicide bombers? Ignoring the religious and theological basis for this violence is part of the reason we've been so ineffective in fighting it. Clearly social tensions are part of the problem, but so is the religion itself.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Aum Shinryko drew upon Tibettan buddhist teachings. There are plenty of buddhist terrorist attacks, and these can be found with simple web searches. Tibetan armed struggle also happens, but because it's in China i) Chinese authority hides it ii) Chinese authority uses a too broad definition of terrorism. But there was armed resistance in 2008 in Lhassa.
    - omginternets 11y ago
      >There are plenty of buddhist terrorist attacks, and these can be found with simple web searches. There's a negligible number of buddhist terrorist attacks compared to muslim terrorist attacks. The position you're defending is absurd and betrays an a priori conclusion on your part.
      - Natanael_L 11y ago

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago

And have you researched its origins? Have you looked into how it's funded, how it was funded, which countries support it now, and which countries supported it in the past? Perhaps the media equivalent of "Four legs good, two legs bad" is not a very insightful way to understand geopolitics and post-war history.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago

The Filipino-Moro conflict has a centuries long history that predates the modern jihadist movement, it's not a "past 20-30 years" thing. It's also hardly as one-sided as you're presenting it. The Spanish-American War was a significant externality in its escalation, go figure. True, Western foreign policy is not solely to blame. But it has definitely shown itself to have cumulative negative effects.

mbrock 11y ago

Yeah, what about Burma? You sound quite well-informed, so could you explain a bit about that history, and how it relates to the centuries of persecution of Muslims over there? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Myanmar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Myan...