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I may be crazy, but it may have something to do with us waging a war on them. What are they supposed to do, take the bombings sitting down, and never retaliate?

by rdancer 11y ago

arrrg 11y ago
I'm really struggling to see what's wrong with that … Priority number one should be to find those responsible and put them on trial. The second priority (connected to the first one – the organizers are probably still posing some danger) should be excellent police work aimed at preventing attacks like this in the future (with the knowledge that absolute security will be impossible and as such any kind of anything goes surveillance would be a bad idea). Looking at the wider context ending the conflict in Syria and Iraq should also be a goal, obviously, but that is not as simple as war, certainly not. That's and always will be a delicate operation, full of pitfalls and with no easy victories. I don't think you will be able to achieve anything there if you just view it as a war against Daesh.
- rdancer 11y ago
  > I'm really struggling to see what's wrong with that We've been bombing ISIS for some time. When they bomb us back, we post tricoloras on Facebook, in a solidarity with France, a target of this "hyenous", "unprovoked", act of "terrorism". The wilful inability to see the Paris attacks as a direct response to our military operation that is literally on the news at the same time, that's what is wrong with that. I hope cooler heads will prevail, and the response you outline will be implemented. If we fail to see what's really going on, the response will be something crazy, and potentially very harmful.
iofj 11y ago
What the Kurds ever did to provoke them ? The Yezidi ? The Shi'a ? The Iranians ? Iraqi Christians ? Assyrians ? Alawites ? Druze ? The Lebanese ? Even if I can sort-of understand that Israel, Turkey and Jordan did do a few attacks, it did not justify the response at all.
- rdancer 11y ago
  I'm just absolutely incredulous at the notion that we go into a war with a fierce enemy, one with a penchant for terrorism, and then act like this came out of a blue, and act as if this was unprovoked? Where is our bravery, our stoicism, our humility? What do you need to "justify" a military operation — surely the mere fact that NATO and ISIS are at war is enough?
  - iofj 11y ago
    Doesn't seem to be reason enough for "us" to actively target civilians (no despite the news, we do not target civilians randomly, there's just a lot of mistakes - including stupid ones). Besides these are extremely empty words from this organisation : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1108548/Shocking-video-shows-extent-execution-Iraq-ISIS.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1108548/Shocking... Believing they have anything in mind other than conquest, rape and destruction is nothing but foolishness. They are people without a future that satisfies them who have been promised heaven. Nothing more, nothing less.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > What the Kurds ever did to provoke them ? Most recently, allied with the West in the same Western acts seen as provocations. And violent Kurdish separatist movements, using terrorism among their tactics, have operated in the region for quite some time, including the Iraqi Kurdish groups that allied with the West during and subsequent to the invasion and occupation of Iraq. > The Shi'a ? Most recently, much the same as the Kurds. But the history of Sunni/Shi'a violence, in both directions, is extremely long. > The Iranians ? The Iranians have sponsored a lot of the Shi'a side of the Sunni/Shi'a violence in the Middle East since the formation of the Islamic Republic of Iran. And once a people have been radicalized by attacks by any party enough that they are susceptible to propaganda that sees outsiders as the enemy, fine distinctions among different sets of outsiders often cease to be made. Understanding the root of the radicalization is not the same as arguing that the radicalization, and especially all of its targets, are rational or justified.

I may be crazy, but it may have something to do with us waging a war on them. What are they supposed to do, take the bombings sitting down, and never retaliate?

by rdancer 11y ago

I may be crazy, but it may have something to do with us waging a war on them. What are they supposed to do, take the bombings sitting down, and never retaliate?

arrrg 11y ago

I'm really struggling to see what's wrong with that … Priority number one should be to find those responsible and put them on trial. The second priority (connected to the first one – the organizers are probably still posing some danger) should be excellent police work aimed at preventing attacks like this in the future (with the knowledge that absolute security will be impossible and as such any kind of anything goes surveillance would be a bad idea). Looking at the wider context ending the conflict in Syria and Iraq should also be a goal, obviously, but that is not as simple as war, certainly not. That's and always will be a delicate operation, full of pitfalls and with no easy victories. I don't think you will be able to achieve anything there if you just view it as a war against Daesh.

rdancer 11y ago
> I'm really struggling to see what's wrong with that We've been bombing ISIS for some time. When they bomb us back, we post tricoloras on Facebook, in a solidarity with France, a target of this "hyenous", "unprovoked", act of "terrorism". The wilful inability to see the Paris attacks as a direct response to our military operation that is literally on the news at the same time, that's what is wrong with that. I hope cooler heads will prevail, and the response you outline will be implemented. If we fail to see what's really going on, the response will be something crazy, and potentially very harmful.

iofj 11y ago

What the Kurds ever did to provoke them ? The Yezidi ? The Shi'a ? The Iranians ? Iraqi Christians ? Assyrians ? Alawites ? Druze ? The Lebanese ? Even if I can sort-of understand that Israel, Turkey and Jordan did do a few attacks, it did not justify the response at all.

rdancer 11y ago
I'm just absolutely incredulous at the notion that we go into a war with a fierce enemy, one with a penchant for terrorism, and then act like this came out of a blue, and act as if this was unprovoked? Where is our bravery, our stoicism, our humility? What do you need to "justify" a military operation — surely the mere fact that NATO and ISIS are at war is enough?
- iofj 11y ago
  Doesn't seem to be reason enough for "us" to actively target civilians (no despite the news, we do not target civilians randomly, there's just a lot of mistakes - including stupid ones). Besides these are extremely empty words from this organisation : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1108548/Shocking-video-shows-extent-execution-Iraq-ISIS.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1108548/Shocking... Believing they have anything in mind other than conquest, rape and destruction is nothing but foolishness. They are people without a future that satisfies them who have been promised heaven. Nothing more, nothing less.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> What the Kurds ever did to provoke them ? Most recently, allied with the West in the same Western acts seen as provocations. And violent Kurdish separatist movements, using terrorism among their tactics, have operated in the region for quite some time, including the Iraqi Kurdish groups that allied with the West during and subsequent to the invasion and occupation of Iraq. > The Shi'a ? Most recently, much the same as the Kurds. But the history of Sunni/Shi'a violence, in both directions, is extremely long. > The Iranians ? The Iranians have sponsored a lot of the Shi'a side of the Sunni/Shi'a violence in the Middle East since the formation of the Islamic Republic of Iran. And once a people have been radicalized by attacks by any party enough that they are susceptible to propaganda that sees outsiders as the enemy, fine distinctions among different sets of outsiders often cease to be made. Understanding the root of the radicalization is not the same as arguing that the radicalization, and especially all of its targets, are rational or justified.