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So.. we usually get comments like this on webmaster forums, and I usually just let them go, but since HN is "my" forum, I feel like saying something. 1. We ide

by jdrock 17y ago

So.. we usually get comments like this on webmaster forums, and I usually just let them go, but since HN is "my" forum, I feel like saying something. 1. We identify ourselves as user-agent 008. The proper way to track a bot is through user-agent, not IP address. 2. We never say that the average rate for all sites is 1 req/sec. Many sites have higher rates. We do a best guess on what load a site can handle based on a mix of Alexa/Quantcast/Compete stats. 3. We always respond to requests from webmasters to reduce the crawl rate. Within 5 minutes of getting your message, we did this. What other bot does this? Oh yeah, none of them. 4. The nofollow tag is not a standard way to tell bots to not go to a link. That is what robots.txt is for. Nofollow was implemented for Google specifically and has caught on as a (not as common as you think) tag. Robots.txt is the right way to talk to bots. 5. You know what happens when people don't use 80legs? They figure out some way to get the information they want and soak up your bandwidth anyway. A webmaster is fooling himself if he thinks he can stop people from crawling a site. It's going to happen. At least with 80legs the webmaster has a responsible company with real people to talk to so that the crawl can be managed.

petercooper 17y ago
Perhaps the parent poster is getting confused by your wiki which states: 80legs defaults to an average rate limit of 1 page per domain per second, but this rate limit may be increased over time for certain domains. And then it goes on to mention people can contact you to increase the limit. This can be interpreted many ways, and the parent poster interpreted it in a different way to how you do.
OmarIsmail 17y ago
1. This requires prior knowledge of your existence, it wasn't until we did proper analysis that we were able to identify the culprit of the "attack". This did expose a weakness in our monitoring systems, so we've obviously learned from this experience, but I can tell you that there are MANY webmasters on the web that aren't as savvy who can get their servers taken down easily by your service. 2. You should try reading your own FAQ. http://80legs.pbworks.com/FAQ http://80legs.pbworks.com/FAQ - see Rate limiting section. 3/4/5. The only bot I care about is Googlebot. And they do use nofollow that way, fortunately the other major bots do as well... so things have been working pretty darn great for everybody. Every other bot I don't care for, don't need, and don't want. If someone legit wants access to our data they can use our totally open and free API that actually gives a lot better information. In principal I think 80legs can be used for good, however, it's like gunpowder where I question the legitimacy of real-world practical use, simply because it can be abused so so easily. I could very well be totally off base here, but that's what lack of information + bad experience gets you. edit: And shouldn't the fact that you "...usually get comments like this on webmaster forums..." be a hint that maybe there's a real issue with your service?
- jdrock 17y ago
  1. We identify ourselves very clearly in our request header through our user-agent, including a link to our website. It's not "savvy" to look for this. It's basic webmaster knowledge. 2. Per another commenter, I can see how the language may be confusing; we'll change it. 3. Webmasters tend to rush to grab their pitchforks instead of thinking things through. We follow all the standard, accepted rules. 4. Some people may not want to use your API because they are interested in more than just your site. Crawling is a one-stop solution to get information from a ton of sites, instead of implementing an API for a single site that is just one data point on the web.
  - OmarIsmail 17y ago
    At the end of the day users of your service won't be accessing our data, which means they'll be missing out on some data, and we'll be missing out on being included in potentially some cool applications. This spat isn't going to have a real effect on either of our businesses in the long run. However, something that may have a bigger effect on your business is the seemingly dismissive and patronizing attitude you have towards webmasters. At this stage of the game you need us way more than we need you. I'm sure in this exchange there's defensiveness on your end because I attacked your company, and you've probably dealt with many PO'd guys like me (patience wears thin easily). However, that's the nature of the web. Us webmasters grab our pitchforks and bitch and moan. I imagine if a large enough contingent of webmasters doesn't like you guys it WILL start to have an effect on your overall business. In which case, it's probably smart business to either: A) play nice, even when we're not, and/or B) Demonstrate a clear business case why it's better for us to expose our data to your crawlers.
    - jdrock 17y ago
      The thing is I was playing nice - responding immediately to your Twitter message, changing the rate asap. But then I come onto HN and see a complaint from you without mentioning we responded quickly. Not cool in my book. You're saying people should play nice when you're just telling one side of the story. Edit: I should note the response would have been even faster if you had emailed us from the contact page that's on the website we link to in our request header. Tweets go to us marketing/biz-dev guys. The contact form goes to everyone in the company. I'm not sure how much nicer we can be beyond doing everything we can to be reachable and identifiable.

by jdrock 17y ago

petercooper 17y ago

Perhaps the parent poster is getting confused by your wiki which states: 80legs defaults to an average rate limit of 1 page per domain per second, but this rate limit may be increased over time for certain domains. And then it goes on to mention people can contact you to increase the limit. This can be interpreted many ways, and the parent poster interpreted it in a different way to how you do.

OmarIsmail 17y ago

1. This requires prior knowledge of your existence, it wasn't until we did proper analysis that we were able to identify the culprit of the "attack". This did expose a weakness in our monitoring systems, so we've obviously learned from this experience, but I can tell you that there are MANY webmasters on the web that aren't as savvy who can get their servers taken down easily by your service. 2. You should try reading your own FAQ. http://80legs.pbworks.com/FAQ http://80legs.pbworks.com/FAQ - see Rate limiting section. 3/4/5. The only bot I care about is Googlebot. And they do use nofollow that way, fortunately the other major bots do as well... so things have been working pretty darn great for everybody. Every other bot I don't care for, don't need, and don't want. If someone legit wants access to our data they can use our totally open and free API that actually gives a lot better information. In principal I think 80legs can be used for good, however, it's like gunpowder where I question the legitimacy of real-world practical use, simply because it can be abused so so easily. I could very well be totally off base here, but that's what lack of information + bad experience gets you. edit: And shouldn't the fact that you "...usually get comments like this on webmaster forums..." be a hint that maybe there's a real issue with your service?

jdrock 17y ago
1. We identify ourselves very clearly in our request header through our user-agent, including a link to our website. It's not "savvy" to look for this. It's basic webmaster knowledge. 2. Per another commenter, I can see how the language may be confusing; we'll change it. 3. Webmasters tend to rush to grab their pitchforks instead of thinking things through. We follow all the standard, accepted rules. 4. Some people may not want to use your API because they are interested in more than just your site. Crawling is a one-stop solution to get information from a ton of sites, instead of implementing an API for a single site that is just one data point on the web.
- OmarIsmail 17y ago
  At the end of the day users of your service won't be accessing our data, which means they'll be missing out on some data, and we'll be missing out on being included in potentially some cool applications. This spat isn't going to have a real effect on either of our businesses in the long run. However, something that may have a bigger effect on your business is the seemingly dismissive and patronizing attitude you have towards webmasters. At this stage of the game you need us way more than we need you. I'm sure in this exchange there's defensiveness on your end because I attacked your company, and you've probably dealt with many PO'd guys like me (patience wears thin easily). However, that's the nature of the web. Us webmasters grab our pitchforks and bitch and moan. I imagine if a large enough contingent of webmasters doesn't like you guys it WILL start to have an effect on your overall business. In which case, it's probably smart business to either: A) play nice, even when we're not, and/or B) Demonstrate a clear business case why it's better for us to expose our data to your crawlers.
  - jdrock 17y ago
    The thing is I was playing nice - responding immediately to your Twitter message, changing the rate asap. But then I come onto HN and see a complaint from you without mentioning we responded quickly. Not cool in my book. You're saying people should play nice when you're just telling one side of the story. Edit: I should note the response would have been even faster if you had emailed us from the contact page that's on the website we link to in our request header. Tweets go to us marketing/biz-dev guys. The contact form goes to everyone in the company. I'm not sure how much nicer we can be beyond doing everything we can to be reachable and identifiable.