8 ms·

Middle school evacuated because of a science project

126 points by georgecmu 17y ago

hga 17y ago
"The student will not be prosecuted, but authorities were recommending that he and his parents get counseling, the spokesman said. The student violated school policies, but there was no criminal intent, Luque said." What possible sane school policies could exist at the "Millennial Tech Magnet Middle School" that the student could have violated? Don't do anything with what we're teaching you outside of school? I suppose there might be a rule of "don't bring in anything unless you get it screened first", but ... geez. Given the level of screening they considered necessary for this device, that doesn't sound likely. I'm really glad I went to school in the 1970s; heck, for my 2nd year in JROTC teaching unit (my senior year in high school), where we went beyond writting a lesson plan to actually teaching a lesson (in anything we wanted, didn't have to military related), I used a page from the Ranger Handbook to show how to build an improvised booby-trap, with a bottle rocket as the thing which went "boom" (mounted in a 2x4 block of wood; much better than a firecracker, makes a lot of noise building up to the boom without as high a single impulse). The instructor was concerned for a moment until he remembered who was giving the lesson ^_^. If someone tried that today they'd probably end up in jail (then again, I suspect my home school district isn't this insane).
- ggruschow 17y ago
  My parents had the same problem in the 70s.. a student was seen with a metal box with wires all over. They got the kids out and called the bomb squad. At least that case was cooler.. IIRC, he was taking over the PA system to play rock music the final day of school.
- lutorm 17y ago
  I'm really glad I went to school in the 1970s I was thinking the same thing (though more 80s than 70s for me). I was very interested in chemistry from 7th grade and up, and did a lot of home experiments including some more or less flammable stuff. This was at least in part encouraged by both my chemistry teacher and my parents and grandparents. Had this been today and in the US and the police had gone through my garage, it seems likely I would be in jail. This stuff is extremely troubling to me. This hysterical overreaction will, as many have already pointed out, serve to completely discourage kids from nurturing their interest in science, and it makes me really, really hesitant about the prospect of raising kids in the US.
- colah 17y ago
  > What possible sane school policies could exist at the "Millennial Tech Magnet Middle School" that the student could have violated? Don't do anything with what we're teaching you outside of school? > I suppose there might be a rule of "don't bring in anything unless you get it screened first", but ... geez. Given the level of screening they considered necessary for this device, that doesn't sound likely. Their policies are available at http://www.mtechmiddle.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=58810&type=d&termREC_ID=&pREC_ID=87933&hideMenu=1&rn=5280209 http://www.mtechmiddle.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=5881... I don't see anything relevant to this. Perhaps the word policy is congruent to ``whatever we make up'' at this school? In case they decide to change their policies, I've downloaded a copy along with the time of retrieval. Others may wish to do the same.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
ricree 17y ago
"He was very shaken by the whole situation, as were his parents," Luque said. Well that will teach him to be interested in electronics. It's a good thing that there's an overabundance of kids going into science and engineering, otherwise this sort of thing could become a problem. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1056341 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1056341
Luyt 17y ago
That reminds me of the guy that was seen using a commandline window on his laptop and got immediately suspected of breaking into the network. ("normal people only use GUIs")
- nfnaaron 17y ago
  And the guy (maybe the same guy?) who actually had a warrant served to search his dorm room and seize his computers, based in part on the fact that he had been seen using a command line. The warrant was later quashed, don't know how or if the case concluded. http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/05/mass-sjc-tosses-calixte-warrant http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/05/mass-sjc-tosses-calixte... The comments on Schneier's blog are interesting. I was surprised at the number of people saying that the warrant was reasonable. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/04/boston_police_c.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/04/boston_police_...
- Groxx 17y ago
  Heh. I just used a terminal on my laptop while trying to figure out why the airplane I was just on didn't want to let me have internet access. Guess it's a good thing I look normal....?
nfnaaron 17y ago
My kid is in 6th grade, which is middle school in these parts. He did his science project over the Christmas break, which involved a Daniels battery (zinc, copper, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate). Although his science teacher had agreed to take the solutions for disposal before the break, I was still cautious when I brought them in first day after break. I left everything in the car, went to the office, asked them to call the teacher to get his permission, and then brought the chemicals in, all the while trying to look like a straight citizen as I walked by the sheriff parked out front as usual. I had exactly the OP's scenario in mind. No sense pushing things when the world is nuts.
- rdtsc 17y ago
  > No sense pushing things when the world is nuts. Yet we have no qualms about our kids playing sports where they easily can break their necks and knees. If you go to any school in US, you'll see students with casts and bandaged knees and elbows. Most of those are sports injuries. See how many children have "science" related injuries -- you'll probably see none. So it is not that we want to protect our children, because then we'd have to cancel football, but instead we end up teaching and perpetuating certain attitudes and values that ultimately will put our country at a disadvantage.
  - idm 17y ago
    Sure, you don't see science-related injuries yet... ...but we don't want the first science-related injury to be a mushroom cloud. </sarcasm>
akadien 17y ago
That's a fantastic way to encourage kids to go into science and technology fields: make them think it's criminal activity and then send them to counseling. I love the irony that this happened at a science and technology magnet school where one might, by some off-chance, presume the teachers are better informed. Way to go, educational system overlords. Imagine if Jobs and Wozniak had lived today during this sort of thing. They'd be sitting in Gitmo.
- dazzawazza 17y ago
  In my mind I want the child to go to counselling but it goes like this: Kids gets dropped of at a massive imposing building, he walks endless corridors looking for room 101, with fear in his heart he opens the door and enters a dark room. When he shuts the door, the lights click on and Woz is there and tells the kid... "don't worry, the world is full of idiots, let's make something cool" That's what the kid really needs and more importantly deserves!
- ellyagg 17y ago
  The student and parents are being encouraged to go to counseling!? It's been awhile since I've been as outraged by a story as this one.
- georgecmu 17y ago
  To be fair, it was the vice principal, not a teacher, who was concerned that "it might be harmful" and notified the police. Certainly, school administrators get promoted based not on their teaching or academic credentials, but on degree to which they adopt the "erring on the side of caution" mentality. What's terrifying is that it takes just one call of an ill-informed, over-reacting person to set this kind of disproportionate response into motion. Personally, I think this story has broader implications than simply that American students are discouraged from pursuing interests in science and technology. I think it illustrates two socially destructive trends: 1. To perceive anything science or technology related that has not been marked with the corporate stamp of approval as a potential threat. Any device with exposed wires that are not hidden behind a slick case with a logo must be a bomb. Anyone that's using command-line instead of a slick GUI must be a hacker, etc. 2. To consider perception of safety above all; that is an over-reaction on a massive scale is not considered anything short of normal. It's normal to send a bomb squad to a kid's house on a mere suspicion of a school official. It's normal to close down a major airport because of a battery explosion. And so on, and so on.
jgrahamc 17y ago
It seems pretty shocking to me that the boy's home was searched. Was there any reasonable suspicion of anything? To be honest, it's a pity we don't know the name of the student so we can start sending him presents consisting of subscriptions to Make, electronics books, chemistry sets etc.
- rw 17y ago
  We could send the subscriptions to his school! Imagine how traumatized he must be, now. He'll need counseling just to deal with the stress--not to overcome his 'problem' making electronics.
  - CalmQuiet 17y ago
    Hopefully the counseling will include skills for coping with ignorant authoritarian bureaucracies - essential for tech innovators outside of tech-savvy settings.
    - tomjen2 17y ago
      Or counselling for an emigration lawyer so he can get the hell out of there.
  - dpritchett 17y ago
    That is quite likely why they recommended counseling. The official reaction here sounds exactly like the one depicted in E.T.! Any 11 year old would be traumatized. The linked article doesn't say what the counseling is for.
- travisp 17y ago
  The parents may have agreed to allow the home to be searched, in which case no reasonable suspicion would have been needed.
  - hga 17y ago
    Indeed, but perhaps based on the threat, implicit or explicit, that their son would be expelled if they didn't consent. ADDED: Presentation also counts, e.g. if the police show up without the son, and say (as a worse case) the son brought a bomb to school, can we check for any other dangerous materials in his room?
jgrahamc 17y ago
When I was in British middle school I got into trouble for bringing a small tape recorder to school. A teacher saw it, it was confiscated and I was in deep trouble. When I tried to explain to the deputy head that it was a tape recorder and not a radio (which was specifically forbidden by school rules) I was told to "shut up" and that I didn't have the "right to speak" because I had broken a rule. In the end my parents went to the headmaster and gave him an earful. The good news is that the school's behaviour had a lasting impression on me: people in authority act like assholes because they are in authority.
- mixmax 17y ago
  Consider yourself extremely lucky to have such understanding parents.
  - jgrahamc 17y ago
    I do. I owe my parents an enormous amount. Hence the special thanks to them in my book. They made a tremendous impact in my life by allowing me to be me.
    - diego 17y ago
      According to evolutionary psychology, you would have been yourself no matter what. For example, Steven Pinker sustains in The Blank Slate that the influence of parenting on personality, IQ and other more specific traits is pretty much negligible (as long as you have "reasonable" parents). Variance in those traits is 40-50% heritable, 50% due to factors outside the control of parenting (accidents, diseases, peer groups, randomness during development) and 0-10% due to parenting. This sounds very counterintuitive to many people because it's not the way we would like it to be. Many studies of adopted siblings, twins separated at birth, and natural siblings who grew up in different families support this hypothesis.
      - nostrademons 17y ago
        You could argue, then, that your parents are responsible for choosing where you grew up and your peer group, and who your other parent is. They're still 100% responsible for how you turned out, it's just the critical decisions happened before you were born.
pavelludiq 17y ago
Im really confused. Are you telling me that in America, teachers are so ignorant of their students, that their first assumption would be that the device is dangerous? Didn't they bother to actually ASK him what it did? I imagine an 11 year-old wouldn't intentionally himself up with his classmates.
- lutorm 17y ago
  Yes, I believe that's what they are telling you.
- ghujklkmnb 17y ago
  Yes - he violated the schools strict anti-thinking policy.
  - PieSquared 17y ago
    I go to a public school (and one of the best ones in the country (the US)). Even here, that statement is so close to true in some cases I don't know whether to laugh or cry... It's even worse IMHO with middle schools, because that's the time period when a lot of kids internally decide 'oh I'm going to be solely a sports person' vs 'wow! math and electronics and physics are so cool.' What gets me is that in our school, in one of the best schools in the country, there's so much idiocy - I can't even imagine the levels of stupidity and prison-like institution present elsewhere. (Funny anecdote: at one point last year, the school staff started putting up bars, expandable bars, in the hallways to prevent people from leaving the cafeteria during lunch. There was quite literally no way to get out and go anywhere, without bumping up against an angry security guard.)
Mz 17y ago
This gives new meaning to the saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."
- sailormoon 17y ago
  I've never liked that phrase, even though I recognise it's true most of the time in the public school system. But the idea behind it, that teaching is a last resort job for losers who can't do anything else, is very damaging to society, IMO.
  - mdwrigh2 17y ago
    Also, the first thought that comes to my head (after all the bad teachers I've had anyways... ) is that Feynman loved to teach. And I'm pretty sure he could "do".
    - argv_empty 17y ago
      Those who can't do, can't teach either.
  - PieSquared 17y ago
    Around here we have an extension. "Those who can, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, administrate. Those who can't administrate, teach gym. " It's a phrase true mostly in the public school system. Doesn't hold so much for universities or other educational institutions.
  - Mz 17y ago
    My understanding is that the phrase refers to the fact that athletes and others go into coaching/teaching when they can no longer do the sport (etc) because they are too old. It was not intended to suggest that teaching is a last resort job for losers who can't do anything else. It means when the body can no longer stand up to the rigors of professional dance, professional sports, or anything else that is a young person's game, age and experience mean they still have something of value to offer.
- 17y ago
MikeTLive 17y ago
Please send technical gifts and educational materials to: Millennial Tech Middle School 1110 Carolina Lane San Diego, CA 92102 (619) 527-6933
eplanit 17y ago
Great, the school and police _traumatize_ a child for doing exactly what we should want them to do: be inquisitive, curious, and creative. The _parents_ need counseling!? These news stories are not shocking anymore (sadly) due to how frequently these absurd reactions are. What is very angering is how the reporter/news outlet never indicate how disproportional and inappropriate the 'official' response is. There's never a cautionary lesson on over-reaction; rather, they always praise "erring on the side of caution" (i.e. erring on the side of irrationality). Yes, fear will keep us safe, eh?
- sailormoon 17y ago
  Yes, fear will keep us safe, eh? Who said anything about keeping us safe? Fear puts butts in seats, which is the entirety of the media's interest in the matter. Now stay tuned for the shocking truth about child abductions in broad daylight - a report no parent can afford to miss!
cridal 17y ago
Idiot America in action. You get 'em boys...
- sailormoon 17y ago
  Wish I could join you at laughing at the stupid yanks, but my own country is headed down this path just as fast as it can, along with pretty much every other liberal western democracy.
  - BigZaphod 17y ago
    The question is: Why is this happening?
    - varjag 17y ago
      Too much time passed since last major war. Generations of sissies are now in charge.
onoj 17y ago
I am quite concerned by this because it suggests to me that these schools would have to start modifying the curriculum. What about exothermic reactions using iron or aluminum filings? Basic cellulose reactions? In high school we made thermite and the teacher made nitroglycerin. I guess all that is over now? How can you move to University without this basic knowledge? (on a principle / elemental level)
- rdtsc 17y ago
  > What about exothermic reactions using iron or aluminum filings? Well now, we wouldn't want our precious little snowflakes to blow their fingers off. But we'll sign them up for cheerleading and football, where they can break their knees, heads and spines. So we are basically banking on them all being professional athletes and dancers. But then, of course, we wonder how come we are so behind all the other countries in science and math.
- jff 17y ago
  I made nitrocellulose in high school chem in 2005; the teacher gave me the instruction sheet and told me to go at it. The teacher also made thermite and welded a cast iron pan to an iron plate. So, I don't know when or where you went to school, but we did the same things you did (thermite and nitroglycerin) only 5 years ago, and this in a little farm town of about 2,000 souls.
  - Vivtek 17y ago
    Little farm towns are the last bastion of sanity in this respect. I grew up in the middle of nowhere, too; the prevailing philosophy there is, if anybody else can do something, then I might as well try it.
    - sketerpot 17y ago
      Same here. I went to high school in a little farm town. There were no metal detectors or mandatory ID badges, people openly carried pocket knives in case they had to cut something, and some of the classes would leave you unsupervised with power tools. The only problems with security came from damn fool English teachers. One of them flipped out over a plastic butter knife, and another misinterpreted an teenage gloom as a warning sign of impending terrorism and called the police.
whichdokta 17y ago
In times of economic woe money may be scarce but time tends to be cheaper. Mayhap this is a good time for getting back into the habit of parent involvement with schooling? I somehow doubt any school with a hacker club run by a couple of science&engineering orientated dads would have these kinds of problems. Wait for the school system to catch a wake-up and we'll be waiting forever.
- ghujklkmnb 17y ago
  Isn't going to happen. Schools will object because of insurance/liability concerns. Teacher's unions will complain Dads won't be allowed unless they have a police background check. Remember we must protect the dear little children.
  - whichdokta 17y ago
    Insurance concerns -> If the existing policies don't already cover it they can easily be extended to cover parental involvement. Teacher unions -> They are welcome to complain but fortunately they don't set school policy. Complaining about how impossible the situation is may make you feel better but fixing it will make you feel good.
  - blhack 17y ago
    The dads are probably all child molesters anyway. What possible reason could a grown man have to spend time with a child other than to sexually abuse them? In fact, we should probably take their own children away from them. /'tis a sad world we live in :(.
    - whichdokta 17y ago
      'kay. HN just turned into Slashdot. I'm outtahere. Cheers, It's been fun while it lasted.
      - dunstad 17y ago
        You seem to have missed the sarcasm.
InclinedPlane 17y ago
Thus concludes episode 282464 in how our public school systems have been transformed into prisons/day-care centers for anyone under the age of 18 rather than institutions of education helping to mold the adults of tomorrow. The end goal of the education system should be a self-sufficient, literate, mature, responsible adult, yet there are precious few indications that today's education system has anything even remotely close to that as a goal.
- billswift 17y ago
  That was part of the apparent intent behind No Child Left Behind. Since some people just aren't as capable as others, the only way to keep anyone from getting "left behind" is to keep anyone from getting ahead. The "Harrison Bergeron" Act is coming up.
DougBTX 17y ago
Also, this is the first time I've seen the same link at the top of HN and Fark at the same time.
acangiano 17y ago
You can politely email the Principal and the Vice Principal here: http://www.mtechmiddle.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=58660&type=d&termREC_ID=&pREC_ID=staff&hideMenu=1&rn=1211544 http://www.mtechmiddle.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=5866...
- seldo 17y ago
  Thanks! Here was mine: Hello - I was very concerned recently to read of your school being forced to evacuate after finding a suspicious device in the backpack of one of your students, as reported here: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jan/15/students-evacuated-school-chollas-view/ http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jan/15/students-evac... I realize that the press often distorts facts in order to better fit their own narrative, but the idea that a child at a technical magnet school is being embarrassed at a school-wide level for doing experimental technical work in his own time is extremely worrying. The suggestion that he is being sent for "counselling" is even harder to believe. As I'm certain you're aware, America has an ongoing problem with adequate science education, a problem schools like yours are meant to correct. This kind of hysterical overreaction is only going to discourage children from building their own devices, and from creative play in general. It is part of a deeply worrying anti-science trend in this country, and I hope you agree that the real changes needed here are at the administrative level, to prevent these kinds of misunderstandings from getting so out of hand in future. Sincerely, Laurie Voss.
- Vivtek 17y ago
  So was the VP still listed as a VP when you found that page? Instead of "N/A", as it stands now?
  - acangiano 17y ago
    Absolutely. She was listed as VP.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
afterburner 17y ago
Heaven forbid the teachers should open up one of their computers... they might turn themselves in!
Zak 17y ago
What we need is for a few people in positions of public trust to have the courage to say "yes, you can be too careful". A small risk of something Very Bad is better than the death of a thousand cuts.
mhartl 17y ago
This reminds me of Star Simpson, the (former) MIT student who showed up to Boston's Logan airport in 2007 wearing a sweatshirt with a light-up LED circuit on it. She wasn't even flying, just waiting at baggage claim for a friend, when one of the airport employees concluded that a 19-year-old girl with an unusual sweatshirt might be a suicide bomber. 40 (that's right: 40) police showed up, and she was charged with possessing a "hoax device" (http://tv.boingboing.net/2008/09/19/star-simpson-once-mi.html http://tv.boingboing.net/2008/09/19/star-simpson-once-mi.htm...). I'm still pissed at MIT for throwing her under a bus; instead of saying "This is ridiculous, clearly the airport staff and police overreacted", they bent over and supported the authorities 100%.
- neurotech1 17y ago
  I still think that the girl was stupid for bringing it to an airport of all places. She had putty in her hand, that could be mistaken for plastic explosives. Terrorists have been known to detonate explosives with hand triggers when confronted. A 19yo MIT student should know better IMHO An 11yo school student would be more deserving of the benefit of the doubt on his project, than the girl at MIT
  - billswift 17y ago
    Your response, neurotech, suggests you really shouldn't practice brain-surgery on yourself.
- billswift 17y ago
  Here's Bruce Schneier's post on the event http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/09/woman_arrested.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/09/woman_arrested...
zargon 17y ago
Okay. Why then, do the education folks complain so much about how USA students test lower in math an science than other countires? Clearly, math and science are dangerous.
- codyrobbins 17y ago
  Does behavior like that of the administrator in the story cause our math and science scores to be lower, or do the lower math and science scores cause the behavior of the administrator? It’s hard to tease apart the causality here. It may very well be that the administrator wouldn’t have called the police if American students tested higher in math and science. That is, our lower math and science scores make us less knowledgeable in these areas and thus more prone to fear when it comes to an ominous looking device with wires. In all likelihood it’s probably both, with feedback going both ways.
shib71 17y ago
Does anyone know what the device actually did? How can this be Hacker News without someone asking that?
- roryokane 17y ago
  "Luque said the project was intended to be a type of motion-detector device." That's all I see about it from the article. But yeah, I am curious why an empty half-liter Gatorade bottle is needed for that. As a reflector of some kind? To make it look cooler?
  - brettnak 17y ago
    More likely than not, the electronics inside were meant to detect the motion of the water. I'd be willing to bet there was something floating in the water that detected the motion of the water. Perhaps more of a vibration / proximity detector than motion detector, but that's what 'half empty bottle of gatorade and some electronics' says to me.
- zargon 17y ago
  The article says it was a motion detector.
anamax 17y ago
Remember - schools tell us that they teach judgement.
jacoblyles 17y ago
Our school system is incurably insane. Its actions are irrational, only tangentially related to its explicit goals. Reform is likely impossible, like trying to turn a cancerous tumor into a working organ.
Vivtek 17y ago
The cool thing is that if you look at their Website now, there is no vice-principal listed. Just somebody with a position of "N/A". I'm thinking that person got a whole lot of email...
noonespecial 17y ago
Do what you're told while at work or school, nothing more. On your own time. Watch tv. Make sure to only watch what we tell you. That will be all, thanks.
teeja 17y ago
I was just reading yesterday that DARPA is having a hard time finding computer geeks. This sort of wretching, chicken-little stupidity might be one reason why. If any of these 'adults' had been paying attention in 9th-grade science class, they'd be able to tell what the kid's up to without calling in Sandia.
sketerpot 17y ago
It's hard to believe nowadays that a President said something as radical as what Roosevelt said in his inaugural address: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance." You can be too careful, and schools need to realize it. Incidentally, so does liability law.
RevRal 17y ago
And I recently finished reading A Confederacy of Dunces. . . . If you don't understand it, segregate it and isolate it ! What sort of sick kick do people get out of cowering geniuses into corners? Here we are, improving and saving the world for everybody, all day long. I wish there was a way to let the kid know that he's a little bit of a hero.

126 points by georgecmu 17y ago

hga 17y ago

"The student will not be prosecuted, but authorities were recommending that he and his parents get counseling, the spokesman said. The student violated school policies, but there was no criminal intent, Luque said." What possible sane school policies could exist at the "Millennial Tech Magnet Middle School" that the student could have violated? Don't do anything with what we're teaching you outside of school? I suppose there might be a rule of "don't bring in anything unless you get it screened first", but ... geez. Given the level of screening they considered necessary for this device, that doesn't sound likely. I'm really glad I went to school in the 1970s; heck, for my 2nd year in JROTC teaching unit (my senior year in high school), where we went beyond writting a lesson plan to actually teaching a lesson (in anything we wanted, didn't have to military related), I used a page from the Ranger Handbook to show how to build an improvised booby-trap, with a bottle rocket as the thing which went "boom" (mounted in a 2x4 block of wood; much better than a firecracker, makes a lot of noise building up to the boom without as high a single impulse). The instructor was concerned for a moment until he remembered who was giving the lesson ^_^. If someone tried that today they'd probably end up in jail (then again, I suspect my home school district isn't this insane).

ggruschow 17y ago
My parents had the same problem in the 70s.. a student was seen with a metal box with wires all over. They got the kids out and called the bomb squad. At least that case was cooler.. IIRC, he was taking over the PA system to play rock music the final day of school.
lutorm 17y ago
I'm really glad I went to school in the 1970s I was thinking the same thing (though more 80s than 70s for me). I was very interested in chemistry from 7th grade and up, and did a lot of home experiments including some more or less flammable stuff. This was at least in part encouraged by both my chemistry teacher and my parents and grandparents. Had this been today and in the US and the police had gone through my garage, it seems likely I would be in jail. This stuff is extremely troubling to me. This hysterical overreaction will, as many have already pointed out, serve to completely discourage kids from nurturing their interest in science, and it makes me really, really hesitant about the prospect of raising kids in the US.
colah 17y ago
> What possible sane school policies could exist at the "Millennial Tech Magnet Middle School" that the student could have violated? Don't do anything with what we're teaching you outside of school? > I suppose there might be a rule of "don't bring in anything unless you get it screened first", but ... geez. Given the level of screening they considered necessary for this device, that doesn't sound likely. Their policies are available at http://www.mtechmiddle.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=58810&type=d&termREC_ID=&pREC_ID=87933&hideMenu=1&rn=5280209 http://www.mtechmiddle.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=5881... I don't see anything relevant to this. Perhaps the word policy is congruent to ``whatever we make up'' at this school? In case they decide to change their policies, I've downloaded a copy along with the time of retrieval. Others may wish to do the same.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

ricree 17y ago

"He was very shaken by the whole situation, as were his parents," Luque said. Well that will teach him to be interested in electronics. It's a good thing that there's an overabundance of kids going into science and engineering, otherwise this sort of thing could become a problem. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1056341 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1056341

Luyt 17y ago

That reminds me of the guy that was seen using a commandline window on his laptop and got immediately suspected of breaking into the network. ("normal people only use GUIs")

nfnaaron 17y ago
And the guy (maybe the same guy?) who actually had a warrant served to search his dorm room and seize his computers, based in part on the fact that he had been seen using a command line. The warrant was later quashed, don't know how or if the case concluded. http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/05/mass-sjc-tosses-calixte-warrant http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/05/mass-sjc-tosses-calixte... The comments on Schneier's blog are interesting. I was surprised at the number of people saying that the warrant was reasonable. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/04/boston_police_c.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/04/boston_police_...
Groxx 17y ago
Heh. I just used a terminal on my laptop while trying to figure out why the airplane I was just on didn't want to let me have internet access. Guess it's a good thing I look normal....?

nfnaaron 17y ago

My kid is in 6th grade, which is middle school in these parts. He did his science project over the Christmas break, which involved a Daniels battery (zinc, copper, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate). Although his science teacher had agreed to take the solutions for disposal before the break, I was still cautious when I brought them in first day after break. I left everything in the car, went to the office, asked them to call the teacher to get his permission, and then brought the chemicals in, all the while trying to look like a straight citizen as I walked by the sheriff parked out front as usual. I had exactly the OP's scenario in mind. No sense pushing things when the world is nuts.

rdtsc 17y ago
> No sense pushing things when the world is nuts. Yet we have no qualms about our kids playing sports where they easily can break their necks and knees. If you go to any school in US, you'll see students with casts and bandaged knees and elbows. Most of those are sports injuries. See how many children have "science" related injuries -- you'll probably see none. So it is not that we want to protect our children, because then we'd have to cancel football, but instead we end up teaching and perpetuating certain attitudes and values that ultimately will put our country at a disadvantage.
- idm 17y ago
  Sure, you don't see science-related injuries yet... ...but we don't want the first science-related injury to be a mushroom cloud. </sarcasm>

akadien 17y ago

That's a fantastic way to encourage kids to go into science and technology fields: make them think it's criminal activity and then send them to counseling. I love the irony that this happened at a science and technology magnet school where one might, by some off-chance, presume the teachers are better informed. Way to go, educational system overlords. Imagine if Jobs and Wozniak had lived today during this sort of thing. They'd be sitting in Gitmo.

dazzawazza 17y ago
In my mind I want the child to go to counselling but it goes like this: Kids gets dropped of at a massive imposing building, he walks endless corridors looking for room 101, with fear in his heart he opens the door and enters a dark room. When he shuts the door, the lights click on and Woz is there and tells the kid... "don't worry, the world is full of idiots, let's make something cool" That's what the kid really needs and more importantly deserves!
ellyagg 17y ago
The student and parents are being encouraged to go to counseling!? It's been awhile since I've been as outraged by a story as this one.
georgecmu 17y ago
To be fair, it was the vice principal, not a teacher, who was concerned that "it might be harmful" and notified the police. Certainly, school administrators get promoted based not on their teaching or academic credentials, but on degree to which they adopt the "erring on the side of caution" mentality. What's terrifying is that it takes just one call of an ill-informed, over-reacting person to set this kind of disproportionate response into motion. Personally, I think this story has broader implications than simply that American students are discouraged from pursuing interests in science and technology. I think it illustrates two socially destructive trends: 1. To perceive anything science or technology related that has not been marked with the corporate stamp of approval as a potential threat. Any device with exposed wires that are not hidden behind a slick case with a logo must be a bomb. Anyone that's using command-line instead of a slick GUI must be a hacker, etc. 2. To consider perception of safety above all; that is an over-reaction on a massive scale is not considered anything short of normal. It's normal to send a bomb squad to a kid's house on a mere suspicion of a school official. It's normal to close down a major airport because of a battery explosion. And so on, and so on.

jgrahamc 17y ago

It seems pretty shocking to me that the boy's home was searched. Was there any reasonable suspicion of anything? To be honest, it's a pity we don't know the name of the student so we can start sending him presents consisting of subscriptions to Make, electronics books, chemistry sets etc.

rw 17y ago
We could send the subscriptions to his school! Imagine how traumatized he must be, now. He'll need counseling just to deal with the stress--not to overcome his 'problem' making electronics.
- CalmQuiet 17y ago
  Hopefully the counseling will include skills for coping with ignorant authoritarian bureaucracies - essential for tech innovators outside of tech-savvy settings.
  - tomjen2 17y ago
    Or counselling for an emigration lawyer so he can get the hell out of there.
- dpritchett 17y ago
  That is quite likely why they recommended counseling. The official reaction here sounds exactly like the one depicted in E.T.! Any 11 year old would be traumatized. The linked article doesn't say what the counseling is for.
travisp 17y ago
The parents may have agreed to allow the home to be searched, in which case no reasonable suspicion would have been needed.
- hga 17y ago
  Indeed, but perhaps based on the threat, implicit or explicit, that their son would be expelled if they didn't consent. ADDED: Presentation also counts, e.g. if the police show up without the son, and say (as a worse case) the son brought a bomb to school, can we check for any other dangerous materials in his room?

jgrahamc 17y ago

When I was in British middle school I got into trouble for bringing a small tape recorder to school. A teacher saw it, it was confiscated and I was in deep trouble. When I tried to explain to the deputy head that it was a tape recorder and not a radio (which was specifically forbidden by school rules) I was told to "shut up" and that I didn't have the "right to speak" because I had broken a rule. In the end my parents went to the headmaster and gave him an earful. The good news is that the school's behaviour had a lasting impression on me: people in authority act like assholes because they are in authority.

mixmax 17y ago
Consider yourself extremely lucky to have such understanding parents.
- jgrahamc 17y ago
  I do. I owe my parents an enormous amount. Hence the special thanks to them in my book. They made a tremendous impact in my life by allowing me to be me.
  - diego 17y ago
    According to evolutionary psychology, you would have been yourself no matter what. For example, Steven Pinker sustains in The Blank Slate that the influence of parenting on personality, IQ and other more specific traits is pretty much negligible (as long as you have "reasonable" parents). Variance in those traits is 40-50% heritable, 50% due to factors outside the control of parenting (accidents, diseases, peer groups, randomness during development) and 0-10% due to parenting. This sounds very counterintuitive to many people because it's not the way we would like it to be. Many studies of adopted siblings, twins separated at birth, and natural siblings who grew up in different families support this hypothesis.
    - nostrademons 17y ago
      You could argue, then, that your parents are responsible for choosing where you grew up and your peer group, and who your other parent is. They're still 100% responsible for how you turned out, it's just the critical decisions happened before you were born.

pavelludiq 17y ago

Im really confused. Are you telling me that in America, teachers are so ignorant of their students, that their first assumption would be that the device is dangerous? Didn't they bother to actually ASK him what it did? I imagine an 11 year-old wouldn't intentionally himself up with his classmates.

lutorm 17y ago
Yes, I believe that's what they are telling you.
ghujklkmnb 17y ago
Yes - he violated the schools strict anti-thinking policy.
- PieSquared 17y ago
  I go to a public school (and one of the best ones in the country (the US)). Even here, that statement is so close to true in some cases I don't know whether to laugh or cry... It's even worse IMHO with middle schools, because that's the time period when a lot of kids internally decide 'oh I'm going to be solely a sports person' vs 'wow! math and electronics and physics are so cool.' What gets me is that in our school, in one of the best schools in the country, there's so much idiocy - I can't even imagine the levels of stupidity and prison-like institution present elsewhere. (Funny anecdote: at one point last year, the school staff started putting up bars, expandable bars, in the hallways to prevent people from leaving the cafeteria during lunch. There was quite literally no way to get out and go anywhere, without bumping up against an angry security guard.)

Mz 17y ago

This gives new meaning to the saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

sailormoon 17y ago
I've never liked that phrase, even though I recognise it's true most of the time in the public school system. But the idea behind it, that teaching is a last resort job for losers who can't do anything else, is very damaging to society, IMO.
- mdwrigh2 17y ago
  Also, the first thought that comes to my head (after all the bad teachers I've had anyways... ) is that Feynman loved to teach. And I'm pretty sure he could "do".
  - argv_empty 17y ago
    Those who can't do, can't teach either.
- PieSquared 17y ago
  Around here we have an extension. "Those who can, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, administrate. Those who can't administrate, teach gym. " It's a phrase true mostly in the public school system. Doesn't hold so much for universities or other educational institutions.
- Mz 17y ago
  My understanding is that the phrase refers to the fact that athletes and others go into coaching/teaching when they can no longer do the sport (etc) because they are too old. It was not intended to suggest that teaching is a last resort job for losers who can't do anything else. It means when the body can no longer stand up to the rigors of professional dance, professional sports, or anything else that is a young person's game, age and experience mean they still have something of value to offer.
17y ago

MikeTLive 17y ago

Please send technical gifts and educational materials to: Millennial Tech Middle School 1110 Carolina Lane San Diego, CA 92102 (619) 527-6933

eplanit 17y ago

Great, the school and police _traumatize_ a child for doing exactly what we should want them to do: be inquisitive, curious, and creative. The _parents_ need counseling!? These news stories are not shocking anymore (sadly) due to how frequently these absurd reactions are. What is very angering is how the reporter/news outlet never indicate how disproportional and inappropriate the 'official' response is. There's never a cautionary lesson on over-reaction; rather, they always praise "erring on the side of caution" (i.e. erring on the side of irrationality). Yes, fear will keep us safe, eh?

sailormoon 17y ago
Yes, fear will keep us safe, eh? Who said anything about keeping us safe? Fear puts butts in seats, which is the entirety of the media's interest in the matter. Now stay tuned for the shocking truth about child abductions in broad daylight - a report no parent can afford to miss!

cridal 17y ago

Idiot America in action. You get 'em boys...

sailormoon 17y ago
Wish I could join you at laughing at the stupid yanks, but my own country is headed down this path just as fast as it can, along with pretty much every other liberal western democracy.
- BigZaphod 17y ago
  The question is: Why is this happening?
  - varjag 17y ago
    Too much time passed since last major war. Generations of sissies are now in charge.

onoj 17y ago

I am quite concerned by this because it suggests to me that these schools would have to start modifying the curriculum. What about exothermic reactions using iron or aluminum filings? Basic cellulose reactions? In high school we made thermite and the teacher made nitroglycerin. I guess all that is over now? How can you move to University without this basic knowledge? (on a principle / elemental level)

rdtsc 17y ago
> What about exothermic reactions using iron or aluminum filings? Well now, we wouldn't want our precious little snowflakes to blow their fingers off. But we'll sign them up for cheerleading and football, where they can break their knees, heads and spines. So we are basically banking on them all being professional athletes and dancers. But then, of course, we wonder how come we are so behind all the other countries in science and math.
jff 17y ago
I made nitrocellulose in high school chem in 2005; the teacher gave me the instruction sheet and told me to go at it. The teacher also made thermite and welded a cast iron pan to an iron plate. So, I don't know when or where you went to school, but we did the same things you did (thermite and nitroglycerin) only 5 years ago, and this in a little farm town of about 2,000 souls.
- Vivtek 17y ago
  Little farm towns are the last bastion of sanity in this respect. I grew up in the middle of nowhere, too; the prevailing philosophy there is, if anybody else can do something, then I might as well try it.
  - sketerpot 17y ago
    Same here. I went to high school in a little farm town. There were no metal detectors or mandatory ID badges, people openly carried pocket knives in case they had to cut something, and some of the classes would leave you unsupervised with power tools. The only problems with security came from damn fool English teachers. One of them flipped out over a plastic butter knife, and another misinterpreted an teenage gloom as a warning sign of impending terrorism and called the police.

whichdokta 17y ago

In times of economic woe money may be scarce but time tends to be cheaper. Mayhap this is a good time for getting back into the habit of parent involvement with schooling? I somehow doubt any school with a hacker club run by a couple of science&engineering orientated dads would have these kinds of problems. Wait for the school system to catch a wake-up and we'll be waiting forever.

ghujklkmnb 17y ago
Isn't going to happen. Schools will object because of insurance/liability concerns. Teacher's unions will complain Dads won't be allowed unless they have a police background check. Remember we must protect the dear little children.
- whichdokta 17y ago
  Insurance concerns -> If the existing policies don't already cover it they can easily be extended to cover parental involvement. Teacher unions -> They are welcome to complain but fortunately they don't set school policy. Complaining about how impossible the situation is may make you feel better but fixing it will make you feel good.
- blhack 17y ago
  The dads are probably all child molesters anyway. What possible reason could a grown man have to spend time with a child other than to sexually abuse them? In fact, we should probably take their own children away from them. /'tis a sad world we live in :(.
  - whichdokta 17y ago
    'kay. HN just turned into Slashdot. I'm outtahere. Cheers, It's been fun while it lasted.
    - dunstad 17y ago
      You seem to have missed the sarcasm.

InclinedPlane 17y ago

Thus concludes episode 282464 in how our public school systems have been transformed into prisons/day-care centers for anyone under the age of 18 rather than institutions of education helping to mold the adults of tomorrow. The end goal of the education system should be a self-sufficient, literate, mature, responsible adult, yet there are precious few indications that today's education system has anything even remotely close to that as a goal.

billswift 17y ago
That was part of the apparent intent behind No Child Left Behind. Since some people just aren't as capable as others, the only way to keep anyone from getting "left behind" is to keep anyone from getting ahead. The "Harrison Bergeron" Act is coming up.

DougBTX 17y ago

Also, this is the first time I've seen the same link at the top of HN and Fark at the same time.

acangiano 17y ago

You can politely email the Principal and the Vice Principal here: http://www.mtechmiddle.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=58660&type=d&termREC_ID=&pREC_ID=staff&hideMenu=1&rn=1211544 http://www.mtechmiddle.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=5866...

seldo 17y ago
Thanks! Here was mine: Hello - I was very concerned recently to read of your school being forced to evacuate after finding a suspicious device in the backpack of one of your students, as reported here: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jan/15/students-evacuated-school-chollas-view/ http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jan/15/students-evac... I realize that the press often distorts facts in order to better fit their own narrative, but the idea that a child at a technical magnet school is being embarrassed at a school-wide level for doing experimental technical work in his own time is extremely worrying. The suggestion that he is being sent for "counselling" is even harder to believe. As I'm certain you're aware, America has an ongoing problem with adequate science education, a problem schools like yours are meant to correct. This kind of hysterical overreaction is only going to discourage children from building their own devices, and from creative play in general. It is part of a deeply worrying anti-science trend in this country, and I hope you agree that the real changes needed here are at the administrative level, to prevent these kinds of misunderstandings from getting so out of hand in future. Sincerely, Laurie Voss.
Vivtek 17y ago
So was the VP still listed as a VP when you found that page? Instead of "N/A", as it stands now?
- acangiano 17y ago
  Absolutely. She was listed as VP.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

afterburner 17y ago

Heaven forbid the teachers should open up one of their computers... they might turn themselves in!

Zak 17y ago

What we need is for a few people in positions of public trust to have the courage to say "yes, you can be too careful". A small risk of something Very Bad is better than the death of a thousand cuts.

mhartl 17y ago

This reminds me of Star Simpson, the (former) MIT student who showed up to Boston's Logan airport in 2007 wearing a sweatshirt with a light-up LED circuit on it. She wasn't even flying, just waiting at baggage claim for a friend, when one of the airport employees concluded that a 19-year-old girl with an unusual sweatshirt might be a suicide bomber. 40 (that's right: 40) police showed up, and she was charged with possessing a "hoax device" (http://tv.boingboing.net/2008/09/19/star-simpson-once-mi.html http://tv.boingboing.net/2008/09/19/star-simpson-once-mi.htm...). I'm still pissed at MIT for throwing her under a bus; instead of saying "This is ridiculous, clearly the airport staff and police overreacted", they bent over and supported the authorities 100%.

neurotech1 17y ago
I still think that the girl was stupid for bringing it to an airport of all places. She had putty in her hand, that could be mistaken for plastic explosives. Terrorists have been known to detonate explosives with hand triggers when confronted. A 19yo MIT student should know better IMHO An 11yo school student would be more deserving of the benefit of the doubt on his project, than the girl at MIT
- billswift 17y ago
  Your response, neurotech, suggests you really shouldn't practice brain-surgery on yourself.
billswift 17y ago
Here's Bruce Schneier's post on the event http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/09/woman_arrested.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/09/woman_arrested...

zargon 17y ago

Okay. Why then, do the education folks complain so much about how USA students test lower in math an science than other countires? Clearly, math and science are dangerous.

codyrobbins 17y ago
Does behavior like that of the administrator in the story cause our math and science scores to be lower, or do the lower math and science scores cause the behavior of the administrator? It’s hard to tease apart the causality here. It may very well be that the administrator wouldn’t have called the police if American students tested higher in math and science. That is, our lower math and science scores make us less knowledgeable in these areas and thus more prone to fear when it comes to an ominous looking device with wires. In all likelihood it’s probably both, with feedback going both ways.

shib71 17y ago

Does anyone know what the device actually did? How can this be Hacker News without someone asking that?

roryokane 17y ago
"Luque said the project was intended to be a type of motion-detector device." That's all I see about it from the article. But yeah, I am curious why an empty half-liter Gatorade bottle is needed for that. As a reflector of some kind? To make it look cooler?
- brettnak 17y ago
  More likely than not, the electronics inside were meant to detect the motion of the water. I'd be willing to bet there was something floating in the water that detected the motion of the water. Perhaps more of a vibration / proximity detector than motion detector, but that's what 'half empty bottle of gatorade and some electronics' says to me.
zargon 17y ago
The article says it was a motion detector.

anamax 17y ago

Remember - schools tell us that they teach judgement.

jacoblyles 17y ago

Our school system is incurably insane. Its actions are irrational, only tangentially related to its explicit goals. Reform is likely impossible, like trying to turn a cancerous tumor into a working organ.

Vivtek 17y ago

The cool thing is that if you look at their Website now, there is no vice-principal listed. Just somebody with a position of "N/A". I'm thinking that person got a whole lot of email...

noonespecial 17y ago

Do what you're told while at work or school, nothing more. On your own time. Watch tv. Make sure to only watch what we tell you. That will be all, thanks.

teeja 17y ago

I was just reading yesterday that DARPA is having a hard time finding computer geeks. This sort of wretching, chicken-little stupidity might be one reason why. If any of these 'adults' had been paying attention in 9th-grade science class, they'd be able to tell what the kid's up to without calling in Sandia.

sketerpot 17y ago

It's hard to believe nowadays that a President said something as radical as what Roosevelt said in his inaugural address: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance." You can be too careful, and schools need to realize it. Incidentally, so does liability law.

RevRal 17y ago

And I recently finished reading A Confederacy of Dunces. . . . If you don't understand it, segregate it and isolate it ! What sort of sick kick do people get out of cowering geniuses into corners? Here we are, improving and saving the world for everybody, all day long. I wish there was a way to let the kid know that he's a little bit of a hero.