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So you have no problem trying to exclude people based on their opinion as long as it is one you don't agree with? That seem quite hypocritical. Similar to how t

by gozo 11y ago

So you have no problem trying to exclude people based on their opinion as long as it is one you don't agree with? That seem quite hypocritical. Similar to how those who supposedly value diversity of opinion have no problem trying to dismiss other peoples opinions by calling them "crybullies".

otterley 11y ago
Voicing a different opinion is different than demanding someone be punished because they have a different opinion. Maintaining diversity of opinion is a two-way street that requires tolerance from everyone. Refusing to invite intolerant people is not hypocritical; it ensures the culture of spirited debate is preserved for all comers.
- gozo 11y ago
  That is the exact same argument that the people you are opposing are making, just that you differ in opinion what is considered intolerant. And saying that you should try to exclude people who don't agree with you seems very much like "demanding someone be punished because they have a different opinion".
  - otterley 11y ago
    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not being intentionally obtuse. How would you design a system that is supposed to foster debate and differing opinions such that people don't shut it down because they cannot tolerate those differing opinions?
    - gozo 11y ago
      You're the one not responding to my arguments, how am I the one being obtuse? How is excluding people you think are intolerant any better then they excluding you for thinking you are intolerant? How is calling people "crybullies" and implicitly "indoctrinated" instead of reviewing and arguing against their arguments being tolerant? How is it not you that don't tolerate people when you think it's a good idea to try to exclude others from college based on their opinion? I think everyone has the right to campaign for their cause regardless if that cause is to stop someone else from doing something. I think it's up to the other party to argue their case as best as they can on their own merits instead of trying to shame the other group that are expressing their opinions. People who support free speech should celebrate the outpouring of free speech happening on campuses right now and they should form their own groups arguing for their causes rather than thinking they are morally superior even though they really just disagree since they want the same thing they are accusing their opponents for.
      - otterley 11y ago
        > How is calling people "crybullies" and implicitly "indoctrinated" instead of reviewing and arguing against their arguments being tolerant? By "intolerance" I mean "having consequences beyond having people disagree with you," for example, making you lose your job. > I think everyone has the right to campaign for their cause regardless if that cause is to stop someone else from doing something. I think it's up to the other party to argue their case as best as they can on their own merits instead of trying to shame the other group that are expressing their opinions. People who support free speech should celebrate the outpouring of free speech happening on campuses right now and they should form their own groups arguing for their causes rather than thinking they are morally superior even though they really just disagree since they want the same thing they are accusing their opponents for. That's not the issue here. If this were all that were happening, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The issue is that speech is now being suppressed in higher education settings -- a place where (otherwise lawful) offense is expected to be tolerated -- by students who don't respond to offense with the sort of counterargument you're proposing. Instead, they are making demands for resignation or other forms of retribution, and these are starting to bear fruit.
        DanBC 11y ago
        > By "intolerance" I mean "having consequences beyond having people disagree with you," for example, making you lose your job. Does institutional racism and sexism and homophobia - which prevent some people even getting a job - count?
        otterley 11y ago
        In many cases, sure, they do. It's pretty much the textbook definition of intolerance. But this is not the issue before us. Here, the students were admitted, presumably with knowledge of these facts, and don't yet have a credible claim to any effect other than hurt feelings.
        gozo 11y ago
        The argument in the top of this thread was that people who are sensitive to certain things should be filtered out of the admissions process based on that. I don't see how that isn't institutional discrimination. What if it included writing an essay on "why bullying nerds are good for them" and people who've been bullied couldn't do very well on that assignment, because they obviously took offence, is that not discrimination?

by gozo 11y ago

otterley 11y ago

Voicing a different opinion is different than demanding someone be punished because they have a different opinion. Maintaining diversity of opinion is a two-way street that requires tolerance from everyone. Refusing to invite intolerant people is not hypocritical; it ensures the culture of spirited debate is preserved for all comers.

gozo 11y ago
That is the exact same argument that the people you are opposing are making, just that you differ in opinion what is considered intolerant. And saying that you should try to exclude people who don't agree with you seems very much like "demanding someone be punished because they have a different opinion".
- otterley 11y ago
  I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not being intentionally obtuse. How would you design a system that is supposed to foster debate and differing opinions such that people don't shut it down because they cannot tolerate those differing opinions?
  - gozo 11y ago
    You're the one not responding to my arguments, how am I the one being obtuse? How is excluding people you think are intolerant any better then they excluding you for thinking you are intolerant? How is calling people "crybullies" and implicitly "indoctrinated" instead of reviewing and arguing against their arguments being tolerant? How is it not you that don't tolerate people when you think it's a good idea to try to exclude others from college based on their opinion? I think everyone has the right to campaign for their cause regardless if that cause is to stop someone else from doing something. I think it's up to the other party to argue their case as best as they can on their own merits instead of trying to shame the other group that are expressing their opinions. People who support free speech should celebrate the outpouring of free speech happening on campuses right now and they should form their own groups arguing for their causes rather than thinking they are morally superior even though they really just disagree since they want the same thing they are accusing their opponents for.
    - otterley 11y ago
      > How is calling people "crybullies" and implicitly "indoctrinated" instead of reviewing and arguing against their arguments being tolerant? By "intolerance" I mean "having consequences beyond having people disagree with you," for example, making you lose your job. > I think everyone has the right to campaign for their cause regardless if that cause is to stop someone else from doing something. I think it's up to the other party to argue their case as best as they can on their own merits instead of trying to shame the other group that are expressing their opinions. People who support free speech should celebrate the outpouring of free speech happening on campuses right now and they should form their own groups arguing for their causes rather than thinking they are morally superior even though they really just disagree since they want the same thing they are accusing their opponents for. That's not the issue here. If this were all that were happening, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The issue is that speech is now being suppressed in higher education settings -- a place where (otherwise lawful) offense is expected to be tolerated -- by students who don't respond to offense with the sort of counterargument you're proposing. Instead, they are making demands for resignation or other forms of retribution, and these are starting to bear fruit.
      - DanBC 11y ago
        > By "intolerance" I mean "having consequences beyond having people disagree with you," for example, making you lose your job. Does institutional racism and sexism and homophobia - which prevent some people even getting a job - count?
        otterley 11y ago
        In many cases, sure, they do. It's pretty much the textbook definition of intolerance. But this is not the issue before us. Here, the students were admitted, presumably with knowledge of these facts, and don't yet have a credible claim to any effect other than hurt feelings.
        gozo 11y ago
        The argument in the top of this thread was that people who are sensitive to certain things should be filtered out of the admissions process based on that. I don't see how that isn't institutional discrimination. What if it included writing an essay on "why bullying nerds are good for them" and people who've been bullied couldn't do very well on that assignment, because they obviously took offence, is that not discrimination?