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I've gotten so much utility out of docker, it feels absurd to read this comment. Containers made the sysadmin part significantly easier, whether it was testing

by vdaniuk 11y ago

I've gotten so much utility out of docker, it feels absurd to read this comment. Containers made the sysadmin part significantly easier, whether it was testing new Node releases, trying out random databases or learning new languages. Without containers I would be spending a lot of time configuring servers/VMs and failing at that. So strange.

mschuster91 11y ago
> Without containers I would be spending a lot of time configuring servers/VMs and failing at that If it turns out during evaluation that setting up a simple Debian VM with the requirements of the tool, the tool ends up on the "black list" for me. No matter the possible productivity gains, I won't use anything needing more than two hours just to get started (i.e. running a Hello World).
- vdaniuk 11y ago
  Those possible productivity gains are available to me without putting in too much time or effort using containers. Seems like a win.
- cwilkes 11y ago
  No matter the possible productivity gains, I won't use anything needing more than two hours just to get started (i.e. running a Hello World). well that certainly helps frame your posts. In this case docker has a webpage that you can play around with. Maybe 10 minutes to get the basic idea. I'm struggling to find out where your hostility comes from. It doesn't make your job disposable, which it sounds like where your fear comes from. Just because people can't come to you to get the ideal Debian server setup doesn't mean you are less valued.
  - mschuster91 11y ago
    > I'm struggling to find out where your hostility comes from. I like to be in absolute control over my environment - and my time. If a tool author cannot manage to provide a Debian package with reasonably current and extensive documentation, I won't waste my time.
  - muzmath 11y ago
    This thread has been stormed by people who work in the sys admin space and either don't care to learn the technology, have used it unsuccessfully while it was young, or see it as harmful to their career.
    - vdaniuk 11y ago
      HN tech hivemind is often both conservative and arrogant: node is an aberration, atom is a travesty, docker is for the lazy, front end frameworks are overused, etc etc.
      - muzmath 11y ago
        Very true. The fact is, even very intelligent people tend to stick with ideas that were popular as they 'grew' into their position. Programming is young, but if you look at the history of more developed fields such as physics and mathematics, there is a very long history of extremely respected scientists out right rejecting new theories for being outlandish and ridiculous that we now accept as the bedrock of scientific theory. The truth is, just as with physics and mathematics, in computer science new ideas do form, but older generations rarely adapt, and it's only with death of the old, and the growth of a new generation do ideas become accepted.
- muzmath 11y ago
  Here you go: `docker run ubuntu:14.04 /bin/echo 'Hello world'`
mkhpalm 11y ago
I don't think anybody is suggesting containers are bad for ephemeral exploration, development, the things you mention. The argument is what you use it for when it comes to production. For example if you're modeling machines with docker you're already using it wrong. Even docker considers that an anti-pattern.
- vdaniuk 11y ago
  I've invested some time to learn about best practices and have been using docker in production for many months with completely satisfactory results. I am not seeing a rational discussion here.
  - mbrock 11y ago
    It's not so emotionally satisfying to talk about "how does The Thing help you concretely and what concrete difficulties have you run into," and way more fun to talk about either "it's all just hype, everyone's a stupid newbie" or "The Thing is total amazeballs and totally teh future you guys."
  - micron7 11y ago
    Me neither, all I see is an avalanche of FUD by what seems to be "old-timers" in this forum. Also mind the fact they haven't been down-voted. This tells me the people with down-voting abilities and this FUD-spreading old-timer group overlap greatly. The main commenters spreading FUD have karmas of ~1500, ~2500, ~12400, ~2900.

by vdaniuk 11y ago

mschuster91 11y ago

> Without containers I would be spending a lot of time configuring servers/VMs and failing at that If it turns out during evaluation that setting up a simple Debian VM with the requirements of the tool, the tool ends up on the "black list" for me. No matter the possible productivity gains, I won't use anything needing more than two hours just to get started (i.e. running a Hello World).

vdaniuk 11y ago
Those possible productivity gains are available to me without putting in too much time or effort using containers. Seems like a win.
cwilkes 11y ago
No matter the possible productivity gains, I won't use anything needing more than two hours just to get started (i.e. running a Hello World). well that certainly helps frame your posts. In this case docker has a webpage that you can play around with. Maybe 10 minutes to get the basic idea. I'm struggling to find out where your hostility comes from. It doesn't make your job disposable, which it sounds like where your fear comes from. Just because people can't come to you to get the ideal Debian server setup doesn't mean you are less valued.
- mschuster91 11y ago
  > I'm struggling to find out where your hostility comes from. I like to be in absolute control over my environment - and my time. If a tool author cannot manage to provide a Debian package with reasonably current and extensive documentation, I won't waste my time.
- muzmath 11y ago
  This thread has been stormed by people who work in the sys admin space and either don't care to learn the technology, have used it unsuccessfully while it was young, or see it as harmful to their career.
  - vdaniuk 11y ago
    HN tech hivemind is often both conservative and arrogant: node is an aberration, atom is a travesty, docker is for the lazy, front end frameworks are overused, etc etc.
    - muzmath 11y ago
      Very true. The fact is, even very intelligent people tend to stick with ideas that were popular as they 'grew' into their position. Programming is young, but if you look at the history of more developed fields such as physics and mathematics, there is a very long history of extremely respected scientists out right rejecting new theories for being outlandish and ridiculous that we now accept as the bedrock of scientific theory. The truth is, just as with physics and mathematics, in computer science new ideas do form, but older generations rarely adapt, and it's only with death of the old, and the growth of a new generation do ideas become accepted.
muzmath 11y ago
Here you go: `docker run ubuntu:14.04 /bin/echo 'Hello world'`

mkhpalm 11y ago

I don't think anybody is suggesting containers are bad for ephemeral exploration, development, the things you mention. The argument is what you use it for when it comes to production. For example if you're modeling machines with docker you're already using it wrong. Even docker considers that an anti-pattern.

vdaniuk 11y ago
I've invested some time to learn about best practices and have been using docker in production for many months with completely satisfactory results. I am not seeing a rational discussion here.
- mbrock 11y ago
  It's not so emotionally satisfying to talk about "how does The Thing help you concretely and what concrete difficulties have you run into," and way more fun to talk about either "it's all just hype, everyone's a stupid newbie" or "The Thing is total amazeballs and totally teh future you guys."
- micron7 11y ago
  Me neither, all I see is an avalanche of FUD by what seems to be "old-timers" in this forum. Also mind the fact they haven't been down-voted. This tells me the people with down-voting abilities and this FUD-spreading old-timer group overlap greatly. The main commenters spreading FUD have karmas of ~1500, ~2500, ~12400, ~2900.