6 ms·

The Exploitation of Paris

61 points by SeanBoocock 11y ago

jkot 11y ago
> Too bad there were no concealed carry permits ... anywhere in Europe ... since 1818. Czech rep. has concealed carry
- mikeash 11y ago
  It's all very dumb. A few random people with pistols wouldn't have done anything to help, and neither would stronger gun control laws. But both sides use the attack to push their opinions anyway.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ojbyrne 11y ago
The Power of Nightmares [1] is a really scary series of movies about how extremists on both sides use each other to further their agenda. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares
- ljf 11y ago
  Just posted on a different thread but check out Bitter Lake by Adam Curtis http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gyz6b http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gyz6b
fennecfoxen 11y ago
I was at dinner by myself, browsing Twitter and just running across Salon blaming the right wing ( https://twitter.com/salon/status/665344751928008704 https://twitter.com/salon/status/665344751928008704 ) when the guy sitting at the next table blamed a conspiracy funded by the Koch Brothers to keep us afraid. ... I prefer these conspiracy nuts to the pundits; they have a better excuse. But that itself is quite sad.
- unknownkadath 11y ago
  Regardless of where we in the West land on the political spectrum, we all seem to forget that the people who do these things have some agency. Sure, there are external factors pushing and pulling on everyone, we all live in a context, good or bad. Ultimately, the people who carried out the attack looked at what ISIS has to offer and said, "I'll take that."
gyardley 11y ago
I agree with Bruni's general point, but I'd take Bruni himself a bit more seriously if he didn't cherry pick his examples from people he traditionally disagrees with. Repugnant piggybacking on this atrocity is taking place across the political spectrum.
mc32 11y ago
LOL. Someone in the opinion pages complaining about opportunism... Good one. I'll take this seriously when the NTY introduces a moratorium on all breaking news and stops jumping on things when it fits their agenda but jump against it when it goes against their agendas. To be sure, concealed carry etc. is anathema to European society and also isn't the answer... Just look at iraq lots of weapons by civilians, it does not stop terrorism..But I have to laugh at their indignation of opportunism.
- hackuser 11y ago
  These criticisms seem to a be a meme among right-wingers who want to discredit the NY Times, apparently for posting things inconvenient to their ideologies. Having read the NY Times and many other sources for years, I don't see evidence of these things happening. Do you have any? The fact that many repeat it, especially inside an ideological echo chamber, doesn't make it likely to be true.
  - ikeboy 11y ago
    When you have things like http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/424102/returning-copy-desk-briefly-kevin-d-williamson http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/424102/returning-copy-d..., do you defend them?
    - hackuser 11y ago
      Thanks for providing the link. I didn't read every word on the page, but my thoughts: 1) I see nothing substantive, only nit-picking over wording. In particular, the NR critic often just comes up with a different way of writing the same thing, something anyone can do with any piece of writing. Much is wording that could go either way, and some depends on what the reporter actually saw. For example, maybe the reporter can't identify who threw the rocks and so can't say anything about them. Maybe the reporter saw a scuffle and not a riot; the NR critic doesn't offer evidence that the statement is in error. In general, it's an old propaganda technique: Just keep up a flood of criticism and people will think that some of it - just a little! - must be true. It's not. Professionals in the field of political maniuplation really do pull this stunt on a regular basis. Look how they demonize every Democratic leader, for example (Bill Clinton, Hillary, Obama). (Left-wingers do the same, but they have far less influence than platforms like Fox News, the Wall Street Journal's editorial page, and Rush - all the most popular in their industries.) 2) The National Review has an avowed agenda of pro-conservative, anti-everything else commentary. This isn't the best source; they are going to find a way criticize the NY Times no matter what, true or not. Perhaps something from a study of journalism would be better (not that I realistically expect you to have that at your fingertips). 3) Reading the Israeli papers Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post, I find that if the NY Times has any bias on any issue, it's not covering the bad things done by Israelis. The Israeli papers paint a much harsher picture of their own country. But I'm not sure I can make sense of it; of course the New York Times is not going to cover Israel in the same details as Israeli papers, so perhaps that explains the difference.
kehrlann 11y ago
To be honest, the shock and pain and angst and awe we feel here in Paris is so overwhelming that I feel too numb to realize that, Yes, of course, people will use this event to promote their own ideological agenda... It makes me sick, truly. This should be a call for peace, not war.
- Shivetya 11y ago
  You can call for peace all you want, those committing the atrocities will revel in it as it simply makes their work easier. Calls for peace instead of war only work when both sides are rational and one side is clearly not.
  - Asbostos 11y ago
    Really? Arguably ISIS would never have existed if the US didn't invade Iraq, destabilizing it and leaving a power vacuum. Also creating increased hatred towards the west in the process. I'd say using peace as a response to 9/11 could have saved us from the Paris attacks, as well as ISIS.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      And to bring enough funds into the region to finance an army. The reports of what happened in Mosul are contradictory so I have no idea any more about what's true and what is not but the story goes that the Mosul bank heist financed the initial phase of IS. This is strongly advocated by some and just as strongly denied by others. There are also stories about planeloads of cash moved into Iraq.
  - rorykoehler 11y ago
    Pouring more fuel on a fire never put it out.
safespace1 11y ago
Salon ran this piece blaming conservatives while the attacks were still ongoing: http://www.salon.com/2015/11/14/and_so_the_hate_speech_begins_let_paris_be_the_end_of_the_rights_violent_language_toward_activists/ http://www.salon.com/2015/11/14/and_so_the_hate_speech_begin... And the Guardian as usual did not disappoint: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/14/paris-attacks-leave-france-in-trauma-fearing-for-the-future http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/14/paris-a... And the left-wing media not long ago had little difficulty exploiting the drowning death of a migrant child due to his father's involvement in human trafficking to justify mass immigration of Muslim economic migrants--at least some of whom we now know were involved in the horrific attack on Paris: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/14/us-france-shooting-greece-idUSKCN0T312W20151114 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/14/us-france-shooting... Consequently, the author's complaints of exploitation ring hollow.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  Consequently, the author's complaints of exploitation ring hollow. Quite the contrary, they only corroborate it.
- quonn 11y ago
  > justify mass immigration of Muslim economic migrants--at least some of whom we now know were involved in the horrific attack on Paris Two out of ~1 million. Two that were NOT actually part of those refugees, but instead just pretended to be refugees - perhaps because it made getting to France _just a little_ easier or perhaps even to incite hatred against the refugees which will then make for a wonderful group to recruit from.
mindo 11y ago
Americans and they idiocracy. I'm happy to live in EU and even though these sort of shocking events happening from time to time I still feel better here than I would ever do in USA. Count your police gun victims it will never add up to what just happened in Paris...
- s_baby 11y ago
  You rather live somewhere where this kind of behavior is common: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdvFfSGxtNI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdvFfSGxtNI
  - grp 11y ago
    This behavior exists but is absolutely not common. Please, stop that disinformation campaign, the guy who creates that video isn't totally neutral [1]. [1] https://www.schusterman.org/users/zvika-klein https://www.schusterman.org/users/zvika-klein
crdb 11y ago
"[T]he public has access, thanks to the media, to news that they know as 'politics' or 'international relations', 'diplomacy', which only present [...] what we call 'the formal view'. The formal view always masks the 'real view', because the latter is almost always considered not receivable by a public that is not initiated (the widest audience) who would not be able to conceive of international politics in any other way than via the spectrum of ethics adapted only to social relationships between individuals." - Missions, méthodes, techniques spéciales des services secrets au 21e siècle, Lt Col X and Jacques Leger (generally quite a good book on modern information wars and opinion manipulation) http://www.amazon.fr/Missions-m-thodes-techniques-sp-ciales-services-ebook/dp/B00BRV9MZU/ http://www.amazon.fr/Missions-m-thodes-techniques-sp-ciales-...

61 points by SeanBoocock 11y ago

jkot 11y ago

> Too bad there were no concealed carry permits ... anywhere in Europe ... since 1818. Czech rep. has concealed carry

mikeash 11y ago
It's all very dumb. A few random people with pistols wouldn't have done anything to help, and neither would stronger gun control laws. But both sides use the attack to push their opinions anyway.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

ojbyrne 11y ago

The Power of Nightmares [1] is a really scary series of movies about how extremists on both sides use each other to further their agenda. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

ljf 11y ago
Just posted on a different thread but check out Bitter Lake by Adam Curtis http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gyz6b http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gyz6b

fennecfoxen 11y ago

I was at dinner by myself, browsing Twitter and just running across Salon blaming the right wing ( https://twitter.com/salon/status/665344751928008704 https://twitter.com/salon/status/665344751928008704 ) when the guy sitting at the next table blamed a conspiracy funded by the Koch Brothers to keep us afraid. ... I prefer these conspiracy nuts to the pundits; they have a better excuse. But that itself is quite sad.

unknownkadath 11y ago
Regardless of where we in the West land on the political spectrum, we all seem to forget that the people who do these things have some agency. Sure, there are external factors pushing and pulling on everyone, we all live in a context, good or bad. Ultimately, the people who carried out the attack looked at what ISIS has to offer and said, "I'll take that."

gyardley 11y ago

I agree with Bruni's general point, but I'd take Bruni himself a bit more seriously if he didn't cherry pick his examples from people he traditionally disagrees with. Repugnant piggybacking on this atrocity is taking place across the political spectrum.

mc32 11y ago

LOL. Someone in the opinion pages complaining about opportunism... Good one. I'll take this seriously when the NTY introduces a moratorium on all breaking news and stops jumping on things when it fits their agenda but jump against it when it goes against their agendas. To be sure, concealed carry etc. is anathema to European society and also isn't the answer... Just look at iraq lots of weapons by civilians, it does not stop terrorism..But I have to laugh at their indignation of opportunism.

hackuser 11y ago
These criticisms seem to a be a meme among right-wingers who want to discredit the NY Times, apparently for posting things inconvenient to their ideologies. Having read the NY Times and many other sources for years, I don't see evidence of these things happening. Do you have any? The fact that many repeat it, especially inside an ideological echo chamber, doesn't make it likely to be true.
- ikeboy 11y ago
  When you have things like http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/424102/returning-copy-desk-briefly-kevin-d-williamson http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/424102/returning-copy-d..., do you defend them?
  - hackuser 11y ago
    Thanks for providing the link. I didn't read every word on the page, but my thoughts: 1) I see nothing substantive, only nit-picking over wording. In particular, the NR critic often just comes up with a different way of writing the same thing, something anyone can do with any piece of writing. Much is wording that could go either way, and some depends on what the reporter actually saw. For example, maybe the reporter can't identify who threw the rocks and so can't say anything about them. Maybe the reporter saw a scuffle and not a riot; the NR critic doesn't offer evidence that the statement is in error. In general, it's an old propaganda technique: Just keep up a flood of criticism and people will think that some of it - just a little! - must be true. It's not. Professionals in the field of political maniuplation really do pull this stunt on a regular basis. Look how they demonize every Democratic leader, for example (Bill Clinton, Hillary, Obama). (Left-wingers do the same, but they have far less influence than platforms like Fox News, the Wall Street Journal's editorial page, and Rush - all the most popular in their industries.) 2) The National Review has an avowed agenda of pro-conservative, anti-everything else commentary. This isn't the best source; they are going to find a way criticize the NY Times no matter what, true or not. Perhaps something from a study of journalism would be better (not that I realistically expect you to have that at your fingertips). 3) Reading the Israeli papers Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post, I find that if the NY Times has any bias on any issue, it's not covering the bad things done by Israelis. The Israeli papers paint a much harsher picture of their own country. But I'm not sure I can make sense of it; of course the New York Times is not going to cover Israel in the same details as Israeli papers, so perhaps that explains the difference.

kehrlann 11y ago

To be honest, the shock and pain and angst and awe we feel here in Paris is so overwhelming that I feel too numb to realize that, Yes, of course, people will use this event to promote their own ideological agenda... It makes me sick, truly. This should be a call for peace, not war.

Shivetya 11y ago
You can call for peace all you want, those committing the atrocities will revel in it as it simply makes their work easier. Calls for peace instead of war only work when both sides are rational and one side is clearly not.
- Asbostos 11y ago
  Really? Arguably ISIS would never have existed if the US didn't invade Iraq, destabilizing it and leaving a power vacuum. Also creating increased hatred towards the west in the process. I'd say using peace as a response to 9/11 could have saved us from the Paris attacks, as well as ISIS.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    And to bring enough funds into the region to finance an army. The reports of what happened in Mosul are contradictory so I have no idea any more about what's true and what is not but the story goes that the Mosul bank heist financed the initial phase of IS. This is strongly advocated by some and just as strongly denied by others. There are also stories about planeloads of cash moved into Iraq.
- rorykoehler 11y ago
  Pouring more fuel on a fire never put it out.

safespace1 11y ago

Salon ran this piece blaming conservatives while the attacks were still ongoing: http://www.salon.com/2015/11/14/and_so_the_hate_speech_begins_let_paris_be_the_end_of_the_rights_violent_language_toward_activists/ http://www.salon.com/2015/11/14/and_so_the_hate_speech_begin... And the Guardian as usual did not disappoint: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/14/paris-attacks-leave-france-in-trauma-fearing-for-the-future http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/14/paris-a... And the left-wing media not long ago had little difficulty exploiting the drowning death of a migrant child due to his father's involvement in human trafficking to justify mass immigration of Muslim economic migrants--at least some of whom we now know were involved in the horrific attack on Paris: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/14/us-france-shooting-greece-idUSKCN0T312W20151114 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/14/us-france-shooting... Consequently, the author's complaints of exploitation ring hollow.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
Consequently, the author's complaints of exploitation ring hollow. Quite the contrary, they only corroborate it.
quonn 11y ago
> justify mass immigration of Muslim economic migrants--at least some of whom we now know were involved in the horrific attack on Paris Two out of ~1 million. Two that were NOT actually part of those refugees, but instead just pretended to be refugees - perhaps because it made getting to France _just a little_ easier or perhaps even to incite hatred against the refugees which will then make for a wonderful group to recruit from.

mindo 11y ago

Americans and they idiocracy. I'm happy to live in EU and even though these sort of shocking events happening from time to time I still feel better here than I would ever do in USA. Count your police gun victims it will never add up to what just happened in Paris...

s_baby 11y ago
You rather live somewhere where this kind of behavior is common: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdvFfSGxtNI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdvFfSGxtNI
- grp 11y ago
  This behavior exists but is absolutely not common. Please, stop that disinformation campaign, the guy who creates that video isn't totally neutral [1]. [1] https://www.schusterman.org/users/zvika-klein https://www.schusterman.org/users/zvika-klein

crdb 11y ago

"[T]he public has access, thanks to the media, to news that they know as 'politics' or 'international relations', 'diplomacy', which only present [...] what we call 'the formal view'. The formal view always masks the 'real view', because the latter is almost always considered not receivable by a public that is not initiated (the widest audience) who would not be able to conceive of international politics in any other way than via the spectrum of ethics adapted only to social relationships between individuals." - Missions, méthodes, techniques spéciales des services secrets au 21e siècle, Lt Col X and Jacques Leger (generally quite a good book on modern information wars and opinion manipulation) http://www.amazon.fr/Missions-m-thodes-techniques-sp-ciales-services-ebook/dp/B00BRV9MZU/ http://www.amazon.fr/Missions-m-thodes-techniques-sp-ciales-...