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I'm only comforted by the fact that there's really nothing any government can do to stop crypto. The technology has become simple enough that anybody can encryp

by dmihal 11y ago

I'm only comforted by the fact that there's really nothing any government can do to stop crypto. The technology has become simple enough that anybody can encrypt their communications or files with open-source software, and that's basically impossible to stop.

elipsey 11y ago
They can criminalize it, so that only criminals use crypto by definition. Think about tor. As a fraction of network traffic, almost no one uses it, so if you do you have singled yourself out. Running an exit node is already a great way to end up in jail, and I would not have a warm fuzzy feeling about using tor for innocent traffic at this point, although it's perfectly legal. Imagine how easily flagged users could be singled out if simply using crypto were a crime, and probable cause for search: e.g. you get caught using FDE on your phone or laptop at a traffic stop or the airport. Either your info is trivially purused at will by LE, or you've committed a crime by makeing it difficult and can be compelled on that basis. Either way, they're reading your mail if they feel like it. The real value of this would be that almost no normal person would want to risk prosecution, so the overwhelming majority of user data could be easily mined. These are just a couple of crypto tools, but the technical details don't really matter here, I think this is a legal and social strategy that will generalize well, and it I think this is where we're inevitably headed.
- shkkmo 11y ago
  Your game theory is accurate, but I think your systems design understanding is lacking. We will have an extremely difficult time making all crypto illegal. Cryptography is crucial to important pieces of infrastructure we use for trust and security. We may reach the point where certain implementation or tools are outlawed. In which case people with stuff to hide will piggyback it inside legal tools. I suspect we will be more likely to see a combination of these approaches: 1) Forcing entities that sell products that provide encryption capabilities to maintain access for the government. 2) Pass laws that make it illegal to avoid or materially assist others in avoiding government surveillance without authorization
  - elipsey 11y ago
    I agree that this seems likely. What if said "unauthorized crypto" will be illegal? E.g. you can use SSL for commmerce, but it's got to "approved", in other words either technically, or organizationally backdoored.

by dmihal 11y ago

elipsey 11y ago

They can criminalize it, so that only criminals use crypto by definition. Think about tor. As a fraction of network traffic, almost no one uses it, so if you do you have singled yourself out. Running an exit node is already a great way to end up in jail, and I would not have a warm fuzzy feeling about using tor for innocent traffic at this point, although it's perfectly legal. Imagine how easily flagged users could be singled out if simply using crypto were a crime, and probable cause for search: e.g. you get caught using FDE on your phone or laptop at a traffic stop or the airport. Either your info is trivially purused at will by LE, or you've committed a crime by makeing it difficult and can be compelled on that basis. Either way, they're reading your mail if they feel like it. The real value of this would be that almost no normal person would want to risk prosecution, so the overwhelming majority of user data could be easily mined. These are just a couple of crypto tools, but the technical details don't really matter here, I think this is a legal and social strategy that will generalize well, and it I think this is where we're inevitably headed.

shkkmo 11y ago
Your game theory is accurate, but I think your systems design understanding is lacking. We will have an extremely difficult time making all crypto illegal. Cryptography is crucial to important pieces of infrastructure we use for trust and security. We may reach the point where certain implementation or tools are outlawed. In which case people with stuff to hide will piggyback it inside legal tools. I suspect we will be more likely to see a combination of these approaches: 1) Forcing entities that sell products that provide encryption capabilities to maintain access for the government. 2) Pass laws that make it illegal to avoid or materially assist others in avoiding government surveillance without authorization
- elipsey 11y ago
  I agree that this seems likely. What if said "unauthorized crypto" will be illegal? E.g. you can use SSL for commmerce, but it's got to "approved", in other words either technically, or organizationally backdoored.