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I didn't know France was doing that? Anyhow it works relatively nicely here in Finland. We only take part in UN operations as peacekeepers. And we don't have r

by vlehto 11y ago

I didn't know France was doing that? Anyhow it works relatively nicely here in Finland. We only take part in UN operations as peacekeepers. And we don't have radicalized Muslims doing strikes in Finland. But for some reason Finnish Muslim radicals still travel to Syrian and join ISIS. I don't think Levant will be peaceful in my lifetime unless Israel magically disappears from the map.

morgante 11y ago
Blaming the violence of the Middle East on Israel is naive.
- vlehto 11y ago
  I didn't try to do that. I just think that conflict fueling unrest more than anything else. And it's lot easier to imagine Israel to disappear than to imagine half of Islamic world to disappear.
  - selectodude 11y ago
    I would point fingers more at Iran vs Saudi Arabia vs ISIS than Israel. If Israel fell off the map, nothing would change.
  - morgante 11y ago
    > I just think that conflict fueling unrest more than anything else. Despite the attention it receives, Israel is actually a pretty localized issue. It has very little to do with the biggest conflicts in the Middle East. If Israel weren't around, Syria would still be destabilized and we would still have ISIS. Also, your rhetoric around wiping Israel off the map kind of gives your agenda away.
    - micron7 11y ago
      > If Israel weren't around, Syria would still be destabilized and we would still have ISIS. Are you sure? According to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, “the area of the Jewish State stretches: “From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.” According to Rabbi Fischmann, “The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon.” When viewed in the current context, the war on Iraq, the 2006 war on Lebanon, the 2011 war on Libya, the ongoing war on Syria and Iraq, the war in Yemen, the process of regime change in Egypt, must be understood in relation to the Zionist Plan for the Middle East. The latter consists in weakening and eventually fracturing neighboring Arab states as part of an Israeli expansionist project. The Zionist project supports the Jewish settlement movement. More broadly it involves a policy of excluding Palestinians from Palestine leading to the eventual annexation of both the West Bank and Gaza to the State of Israel. According to Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya in a 2011 Global Research article, The Yinon Plan was a continuation of Britain’s colonial design in the Middle East: “[The Yinon plan] is an Israeli strategic plan to ensure Israeli regional superiority. It insists and stipulates that Israel must reconfigure its geo-political environment through the balkanization of the surrounding Arab states into smaller and weaker states.
      - zippoxer 11y ago
        > According to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, “the area of the Jewish State stretches: “From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.” Yeah, it's just that no Israelis want any more areas. Except the extremist ones.
        micron7 11y ago
        How much power do the extremists hold in this situation? Usually extremists hold a lot of power due to their outsized impetus.
    - vlehto 11y ago
      My agenda. :D I got the idea of wiping Israel off the map from PLO "peace suggestion". I'm not going to pick a side in that stuff. I'm just extremely cynical that there would ever be peace.
      - morgante 11y ago
        When you pull your rhetoric out of the PLO playbook, you've already chosen a side.
        vlehto 11y ago
        Not picking a side is not knowing what PLO wants? I really thought that everybody would consider "wiping Israel our of Levant" outright ridiculous idea. I will try to be more specific next time.
        morgante 11y ago
        No, picking a side is when you claim that wiping Israel off the map is the only solution.
fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
> France is sending its largest warship to join operations against Islamic State (IS) in Syria and Iraq. source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34738177 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34738177
- vlehto 11y ago
  Thanks. I was genuinely curious. To me "power projection" in itself is morally very questionable. Even without terrorist attacks. Unfortunately modern geopolitics is more Machiavellian than Machiavelli himself was.
  - bayesianhorse 11y ago
    Not stopping genocide is morally questionable too. And that's what Assad and IS have been doing.
    - codedokode 11y ago
      So did western invasion into Iraq stop genocide and make things better there? It just made everything more complicated.
      - bayesianhorse 11y ago
        Nobody ever said that the invasion of Iraq was to stop a genocide. In my opinion it was mainly revenge for 9/11, even if the association of Saddam Hussein with terrorism is murky at best.
    - vlehto 11y ago
      It's not just morally questionable, it's outright wrong. Unfortunately trying to stop genocide with violence and failing miserably is even more wrong. On the other hand using supposed genocide as excuse to forward geopolitical interests would also be wrong. Given how Vietnam, Afghanistan, or Iraq wars have turned out, I'm not in favor of meddling. Given how nobody gave single fuck about Khmer rouge, I don't believe in genuine good will in geopolitics. So I'm not giving my permission to anybody to conduct air strikes in Syria, but they won't ask me either. Only air strike that gets my approval is dropping several tonnes of polyurethane to Dabiq. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi...
jellicle 11y ago
> The French military has carried out its first airstrikes against ISIS in Syria, according to a statement from the office of France's presidency. > The country had announced earlier this month that it would expand its aerial campaign against ISIS in Iraq -- which it began a year ago -- to include the militant group's positions in Syria. http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/27/middleeast/syria-france-isis-bombing/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/27/middleeast/syria-france-isis-b...

by vlehto 11y ago

morgante 11y ago

Blaming the violence of the Middle East on Israel is naive.

vlehto 11y ago
I didn't try to do that. I just think that conflict fueling unrest more than anything else. And it's lot easier to imagine Israel to disappear than to imagine half of Islamic world to disappear.
- selectodude 11y ago
  I would point fingers more at Iran vs Saudi Arabia vs ISIS than Israel. If Israel fell off the map, nothing would change.
- morgante 11y ago
  > I just think that conflict fueling unrest more than anything else. Despite the attention it receives, Israel is actually a pretty localized issue. It has very little to do with the biggest conflicts in the Middle East. If Israel weren't around, Syria would still be destabilized and we would still have ISIS. Also, your rhetoric around wiping Israel off the map kind of gives your agenda away.
  - micron7 11y ago
    > If Israel weren't around, Syria would still be destabilized and we would still have ISIS. Are you sure? According to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, “the area of the Jewish State stretches: “From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.” According to Rabbi Fischmann, “The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon.” When viewed in the current context, the war on Iraq, the 2006 war on Lebanon, the 2011 war on Libya, the ongoing war on Syria and Iraq, the war in Yemen, the process of regime change in Egypt, must be understood in relation to the Zionist Plan for the Middle East. The latter consists in weakening and eventually fracturing neighboring Arab states as part of an Israeli expansionist project. The Zionist project supports the Jewish settlement movement. More broadly it involves a policy of excluding Palestinians from Palestine leading to the eventual annexation of both the West Bank and Gaza to the State of Israel. According to Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya in a 2011 Global Research article, The Yinon Plan was a continuation of Britain’s colonial design in the Middle East: “[The Yinon plan] is an Israeli strategic plan to ensure Israeli regional superiority. It insists and stipulates that Israel must reconfigure its geo-political environment through the balkanization of the surrounding Arab states into smaller and weaker states.
    - zippoxer 11y ago
      > According to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, “the area of the Jewish State stretches: “From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.” Yeah, it's just that no Israelis want any more areas. Except the extremist ones.
      - micron7 11y ago
        How much power do the extremists hold in this situation? Usually extremists hold a lot of power due to their outsized impetus.
  - vlehto 11y ago
    My agenda. :D I got the idea of wiping Israel off the map from PLO "peace suggestion". I'm not going to pick a side in that stuff. I'm just extremely cynical that there would ever be peace.
    - morgante 11y ago
      When you pull your rhetoric out of the PLO playbook, you've already chosen a side.
      - vlehto 11y ago
        Not picking a side is not knowing what PLO wants? I really thought that everybody would consider "wiping Israel our of Levant" outright ridiculous idea. I will try to be more specific next time.
        morgante 11y ago
        No, picking a side is when you claim that wiping Israel off the map is the only solution.

fnordfnordfnord 11y ago

> France is sending its largest warship to join operations against Islamic State (IS) in Syria and Iraq. source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34738177 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34738177

vlehto 11y ago
Thanks. I was genuinely curious. To me "power projection" in itself is morally very questionable. Even without terrorist attacks. Unfortunately modern geopolitics is more Machiavellian than Machiavelli himself was.
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  Not stopping genocide is morally questionable too. And that's what Assad and IS have been doing.
  - codedokode 11y ago
    So did western invasion into Iraq stop genocide and make things better there? It just made everything more complicated.
    - bayesianhorse 11y ago
      Nobody ever said that the invasion of Iraq was to stop a genocide. In my opinion it was mainly revenge for 9/11, even if the association of Saddam Hussein with terrorism is murky at best.
  - vlehto 11y ago
    It's not just morally questionable, it's outright wrong. Unfortunately trying to stop genocide with violence and failing miserably is even more wrong. On the other hand using supposed genocide as excuse to forward geopolitical interests would also be wrong. Given how Vietnam, Afghanistan, or Iraq wars have turned out, I'm not in favor of meddling. Given how nobody gave single fuck about Khmer rouge, I don't believe in genuine good will in geopolitics. So I'm not giving my permission to anybody to conduct air strikes in Syria, but they won't ask me either. Only air strike that gets my approval is dropping several tonnes of polyurethane to Dabiq. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi...

jellicle 11y ago

> The French military has carried out its first airstrikes against ISIS in Syria, according to a statement from the office of France's presidency. > The country had announced earlier this month that it would expand its aerial campaign against ISIS in Iraq -- which it began a year ago -- to include the militant group's positions in Syria. http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/27/middleeast/syria-france-isis-bombing/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/27/middleeast/syria-france-isis-b...