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Moved from Windows to OSX a couple of years ago after hearing for so long how much better the Mac experience and usability was. Some examples of why this was w

by cja 11y ago

Moved from Windows to OSX a couple of years ago after hearing for so long how much better the Mac experience and usability was. Some examples of why this was wrong: 1. Cmd-Tab lets me select a hidden window but it won't show it! 2. Many frequently used click targets are too small. For example, the close, minimise and maximise buttons. 3. The close minimise and maximise buttons reveal their functions only when the mouse is over them. 4. There's no reliable way to maximise a window. 5. Despite really trying to go keyboard-only, it's very difficult to avoid using the mouse. 6. The file browser doesn't show the aggregate size of selected files. 7. Cmd+Down to open the selected file! Why not Enter?! 8. I still have no idea which button Enter will press on a dialog box. There seems no way to make this clearer or to activate something like Alt+underlined_letter_of_desired_button_caption. 9. There's no Cut operation, only Copy and Paste. My MacBook Pro is awesome hardware but Windows is way ahead of OSX.

Someone 11y ago
"7. Cmd+Down to open the selected file! Why not Enter?!" Consistency. Cmd+Up moves you up one level in the file system, Cmd+Down down one level. Also, at least historically, there was a consistency in that a key stroke is a command if and only if it contains the command key. The reason the Finder did not have copy-paste for years, and why it doesn't have cut till this day is that it is hard to implement. A proper cut would immediately delete the file from the file system, and a later paste would paste the file with the contents it had when the file was cut or copied (Excel is also notoriously bad at this; cut a range, close the file, and try pasting)
- izacus 11y ago
  >The reason the Finder did not have copy-paste for years, and why it doesn't have cut till this day is that it is hard to implement. A proper cut would immediately delete the file from the file system, and a later paste would paste the file with the contents it had when the file was cut or copied (Excel is also notoriously bad at this; cut a range, close the file, and try pasting) Huh? That's the strangest reasoning I've ever seen - all other file managers on platforms (including 3rd party file managers on OS X) do this well and delete original file only after the paste command is done. It works, is very useful and doesn't confuse users any more than the cut functionality does. So I'm not sure where your reasoning comes from.
  - Someone 11y ago
    I know that, but that is inconsistent and that inconsistency _is_ the reason the Finder resisted implementing it for years, and why it doesn't have cut-paste to this day, but does have move. It is hard to find things from decades ago on the web, but see https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Apple-not-provide-a-cut-function-in-the-Finder https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Apple-not-provide-a-cut-funct... (2011). The answer from Eduo-Gutiérrez IMO points to the same. The Apple Human Interface guidelines also are fairly clear on the fact that the clipboard behaves like a real object. My 1987 edition says (page 81): The Clipboard holds whatever is cut or copied from a document. Its contents stay intact when the user changes documents, opens a desk accessory, or leaves the application. That certainly is not the way Excel behaves. Also,on page 83, discussing the Cut menu item: When the user chooses Cut, the application removes the current selection from the document and puts it in the Clipboard, replacing the Clipboard's previous contents. [...] If the user chooses Paste immediately after choosing Cut, the document is just as it was before the Cut.
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      "I know that, but that is inconsistent and that inconsistency _is_ the reason the Finder resisted implementing it for years" Inconsistent with what exactly?
      - Someone 11y ago
        1) A cut without a paste deletes stuff, except in file explorers and in ?some/most/all? cut actions in Excel. 2) A copy or cut puts stuff in the clipboard. It stays there until you copy or paste again, except in Excel, where entering new data between copy and paste clears the clipboard.
        digi_owl 11y ago
        Thanks. Reminds me that various file explorers do not call it a cut, but a move. They just reuse the same keyboard shortcut as the cut found in text editors.
jbrooksuk 11y ago
Cut can be done with CMD+C and then I think it's CMD+Alt+V for paste and remove original.
- cja 11y ago
  Thanks. There's no context menu option like in Windows so no one knows about this without googling.
  - dmd 11y ago
    Have I just walked into some alternate reality? On my Mac, cut is command-x.
    - hyperion_ 11y ago
      In the Finder it isn't.
- oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
  I assume we're talking about Cut in Finder, because it works elsewhere. This has been one of my OSX bugbears for ages now, but I always assumed there was a technical/ideological reason for disallowing Cut/Paste of a file. Now you're telling me I can do it, I just need to learn another shortcut, and remember that it only applies in this situation?! What on earth could possibly be the rationale behind that? Keyboard support in OSX is truly appalling. Window management with the keyboard is also a pain, and even tabbing through controls - even with the stupidly-off-by-default setting - sometimes fails. The reason this annoys me so much is that OSX on Mac hardware is almost a dream setup apart from these flaws, but these flaws are significant enough that, after 4 happy years, I'm actually considering switching back to Windows.
david-given 11y ago
Windows has historically has really excellent keyboard support, at least back in the Win3.1 days, where driving an entire app from the keyboard was simple, easy, obvious and frequently easier than using the mouse. This slipped a bit with later versions of Windows, with too many apps having unnavigable widgets. But, despite Microsoft's many mistakes, this was something they got absolutely right back at the very beginning. MacOS was much less good, with the only keyboard support being explicit accelerator keys. A Mac with no mouse was unusable. How does OSX fare?
- mattkevan 11y ago
  Well, that was kind of the point. The original Mac OS was designed to be mouse-first. Keyboard shortcuts were there, but only to be used as well as, not instead of the mouse. Windows had to be completely usable by keyboard as it began as a graphical overlay to a keyboard-only interface - and it wasn't possible to guarantee every machine it was on had a mouse. It's a bit like now I suppose. iOS was designed to be touch-first, with limited keyboard and no pointer support, and Windows adds a touch overlay to a keyboard and pointer-first system.
  - analog31 11y ago
    The keyboard shortcuts are such a blessing. Truth be told, I learned all of them even when I used a Mac in the System 7 era. For me, the mouse [0] is not just an ergonomic problem by itself, but using it with graphical software gives me pounding eyestrain headaches and neck fatigue. The keyboard lets me divert my visual focus away from the screen, yet know "where" the commands are. To this day, programming is my favorite design activity because it doesn't require interacting with a graphical display. I can't do CAD. I always just assumed that Windows kept the keyboard shortcuts because they were such a good idea. [0] or touch pad, track ball, whatever. I've tried 'em all. The best of the bunch is the touch screen.
thejew 11y ago
I agree with all of your points. I have done tons of research on how to use the keyboard only. 1. If the window is minimized (minimize with Cmd-M) you can Cmd-tab to it let go of Cmd hold tab and press option and let go of tab and the window will reappear. 2. I use Cmd-W to close windows and Cmd-M to minimize windows. If you hold Shift while double clicking the title bar of the window you can maximize it in the same paradigm as windows. 3. I use the shortcuts. 4. see 2. 5. Yes. 6. If you hold Cmd-option-I after selecting files. 7. Cmd-O for Open. It started to make more sense to me. 8. Sometimes you can press (and this is inconsistent) Control-(the letter the button that you want to press starts with, so Control-C for Create) 9. Sure there is a cut operation.
- tmd83 11y ago
  Thanks for the Cmd-Option-I, never even thought about googling for this. I know some of the shortcuts including how to open something but some of the defaults here are not about mac being different from windows (commenting on the parent) but stupid at least to my understanding. No one renames file more than they open it in a file browser so making the most frequent operation in a file browser a two key shortcut is irrational. Same goes for multiple files showing multiple info window. I think windows/linux now even shows you warning when you have too many files selected and you press return. OsX the first time I tried Cmd+I on multiple files opened 140 info windows. How many times in your lifetime do you want that when pressing Cmd+I on files? And lets not talk about highly expert commenters on apple forum explaining why cut paste is supposedly something that can make you loose files :(
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
hamstergene 11y ago
Please not yet another "I've switched from A to B and was shocked to discover that B does not work like A!" rant. You're simply executing working patterns from Windows and of course it does not work so well. 1. Cmd-Tab does not select windows, it selects apps. If the app is hidden (Cmd+H), it will be unhidden. 2. They are not such a frequent click targets. Also, that is not a maximize button. I see what your problem with 1+2 is: you are using minimize function to reveal windows behind the current window like you did in Windows. Well... don't. There are other ways to do it (Mission Control, Dock, hide), you are not supposed to use minimize so often. 3. Seriously? It's only an issue if you're seeing Mac the first time in your life. 4. Because there is no maximize function. 5. Keyboard-only never was a design goal. 6. Alt+Cmd+I. Learn about significance of Alt button, you'll discover a lot of functions that you think are missing. 7. Because Enter renames the item. 8. The blue button. (Apple has recently broken that in some dialogs in 10.11 and hasn't fixed yet.) 9. Finder does not allow to cut&paste files, yes. Of all your list, this is the only valid critic, which does not stem from mis-using the thing. Trust me as Mac user, we are not suffering, and when rebooting to Windows to play PC-only game, we do not feel any improvement (to put it mildly). What you think is "the most intuitive way to do it" is actually just "the most familiar to me way to do it". There is a term for this, "baby duck syndrome": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/baby_duck_syndrome https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/baby_duck_syndrome > (humorous) The tendency of computer users to always think the system (software or usage paradigm) they originally started using is better.
- spyder 11y ago
  you are not supposed to use minimize so often. So you are saying he is "holding it wrong"...
rbrcurtis 11y ago
check out "rightzoom" to give you a kb shortcut for maximize. Also, I agree with you that finder is dumb.

by cja 11y ago

Someone 11y ago

"7. Cmd+Down to open the selected file! Why not Enter?!" Consistency. Cmd+Up moves you up one level in the file system, Cmd+Down down one level. Also, at least historically, there was a consistency in that a key stroke is a command if and only if it contains the command key. The reason the Finder did not have copy-paste for years, and why it doesn't have cut till this day is that it is hard to implement. A proper cut would immediately delete the file from the file system, and a later paste would paste the file with the contents it had when the file was cut or copied (Excel is also notoriously bad at this; cut a range, close the file, and try pasting)

izacus 11y ago
>The reason the Finder did not have copy-paste for years, and why it doesn't have cut till this day is that it is hard to implement. A proper cut would immediately delete the file from the file system, and a later paste would paste the file with the contents it had when the file was cut or copied (Excel is also notoriously bad at this; cut a range, close the file, and try pasting) Huh? That's the strangest reasoning I've ever seen - all other file managers on platforms (including 3rd party file managers on OS X) do this well and delete original file only after the paste command is done. It works, is very useful and doesn't confuse users any more than the cut functionality does. So I'm not sure where your reasoning comes from.
- Someone 11y ago
  I know that, but that is inconsistent and that inconsistency _is_ the reason the Finder resisted implementing it for years, and why it doesn't have cut-paste to this day, but does have move. It is hard to find things from decades ago on the web, but see https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Apple-not-provide-a-cut-function-in-the-Finder https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Apple-not-provide-a-cut-funct... (2011). The answer from Eduo-Gutiérrez IMO points to the same. The Apple Human Interface guidelines also are fairly clear on the fact that the clipboard behaves like a real object. My 1987 edition says (page 81): The Clipboard holds whatever is cut or copied from a document. Its contents stay intact when the user changes documents, opens a desk accessory, or leaves the application. That certainly is not the way Excel behaves. Also,on page 83, discussing the Cut menu item: When the user chooses Cut, the application removes the current selection from the document and puts it in the Clipboard, replacing the Clipboard's previous contents. [...] If the user chooses Paste immediately after choosing Cut, the document is just as it was before the Cut.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    "I know that, but that is inconsistent and that inconsistency _is_ the reason the Finder resisted implementing it for years" Inconsistent with what exactly?
    - Someone 11y ago
      1) A cut without a paste deletes stuff, except in file explorers and in ?some/most/all? cut actions in Excel. 2) A copy or cut puts stuff in the clipboard. It stays there until you copy or paste again, except in Excel, where entering new data between copy and paste clears the clipboard.
      - digi_owl 11y ago
        Thanks. Reminds me that various file explorers do not call it a cut, but a move. They just reuse the same keyboard shortcut as the cut found in text editors.

jbrooksuk 11y ago

Cut can be done with CMD+C and then I think it's CMD+Alt+V for paste and remove original.

cja 11y ago
Thanks. There's no context menu option like in Windows so no one knows about this without googling.
- dmd 11y ago
  Have I just walked into some alternate reality? On my Mac, cut is command-x.
  - hyperion_ 11y ago
    In the Finder it isn't.
oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
I assume we're talking about Cut in Finder, because it works elsewhere. This has been one of my OSX bugbears for ages now, but I always assumed there was a technical/ideological reason for disallowing Cut/Paste of a file. Now you're telling me I can do it, I just need to learn another shortcut, and remember that it only applies in this situation?! What on earth could possibly be the rationale behind that? Keyboard support in OSX is truly appalling. Window management with the keyboard is also a pain, and even tabbing through controls - even with the stupidly-off-by-default setting - sometimes fails. The reason this annoys me so much is that OSX on Mac hardware is almost a dream setup apart from these flaws, but these flaws are significant enough that, after 4 happy years, I'm actually considering switching back to Windows.

david-given 11y ago

Windows has historically has really excellent keyboard support, at least back in the Win3.1 days, where driving an entire app from the keyboard was simple, easy, obvious and frequently easier than using the mouse. This slipped a bit with later versions of Windows, with too many apps having unnavigable widgets. But, despite Microsoft's many mistakes, this was something they got absolutely right back at the very beginning. MacOS was much less good, with the only keyboard support being explicit accelerator keys. A Mac with no mouse was unusable. How does OSX fare?

mattkevan 11y ago
Well, that was kind of the point. The original Mac OS was designed to be mouse-first. Keyboard shortcuts were there, but only to be used as well as, not instead of the mouse. Windows had to be completely usable by keyboard as it began as a graphical overlay to a keyboard-only interface - and it wasn't possible to guarantee every machine it was on had a mouse. It's a bit like now I suppose. iOS was designed to be touch-first, with limited keyboard and no pointer support, and Windows adds a touch overlay to a keyboard and pointer-first system.
- analog31 11y ago
  The keyboard shortcuts are such a blessing. Truth be told, I learned all of them even when I used a Mac in the System 7 era. For me, the mouse [0] is not just an ergonomic problem by itself, but using it with graphical software gives me pounding eyestrain headaches and neck fatigue. The keyboard lets me divert my visual focus away from the screen, yet know "where" the commands are. To this day, programming is my favorite design activity because it doesn't require interacting with a graphical display. I can't do CAD. I always just assumed that Windows kept the keyboard shortcuts because they were such a good idea. [0] or touch pad, track ball, whatever. I've tried 'em all. The best of the bunch is the touch screen.

thejew 11y ago

I agree with all of your points. I have done tons of research on how to use the keyboard only. 1. If the window is minimized (minimize with Cmd-M) you can Cmd-tab to it let go of Cmd hold tab and press option and let go of tab and the window will reappear. 2. I use Cmd-W to close windows and Cmd-M to minimize windows. If you hold Shift while double clicking the title bar of the window you can maximize it in the same paradigm as windows. 3. I use the shortcuts. 4. see 2. 5. Yes. 6. If you hold Cmd-option-I after selecting files. 7. Cmd-O for Open. It started to make more sense to me. 8. Sometimes you can press (and this is inconsistent) Control-(the letter the button that you want to press starts with, so Control-C for Create) 9. Sure there is a cut operation.

tmd83 11y ago
Thanks for the Cmd-Option-I, never even thought about googling for this. I know some of the shortcuts including how to open something but some of the defaults here are not about mac being different from windows (commenting on the parent) but stupid at least to my understanding. No one renames file more than they open it in a file browser so making the most frequent operation in a file browser a two key shortcut is irrational. Same goes for multiple files showing multiple info window. I think windows/linux now even shows you warning when you have too many files selected and you press return. OsX the first time I tried Cmd+I on multiple files opened 140 info windows. How many times in your lifetime do you want that when pressing Cmd+I on files? And lets not talk about highly expert commenters on apple forum explaining why cut paste is supposedly something that can make you loose files :(

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

hamstergene 11y ago

Please not yet another "I've switched from A to B and was shocked to discover that B does not work like A!" rant. You're simply executing working patterns from Windows and of course it does not work so well. 1. Cmd-Tab does not select windows, it selects apps. If the app is hidden (Cmd+H), it will be unhidden. 2. They are not such a frequent click targets. Also, that is not a maximize button. I see what your problem with 1+2 is: you are using minimize function to reveal windows behind the current window like you did in Windows. Well... don't. There are other ways to do it (Mission Control, Dock, hide), you are not supposed to use minimize so often. 3. Seriously? It's only an issue if you're seeing Mac the first time in your life. 4. Because there is no maximize function. 5. Keyboard-only never was a design goal. 6. Alt+Cmd+I. Learn about significance of Alt button, you'll discover a lot of functions that you think are missing. 7. Because Enter renames the item. 8. The blue button. (Apple has recently broken that in some dialogs in 10.11 and hasn't fixed yet.) 9. Finder does not allow to cut&paste files, yes. Of all your list, this is the only valid critic, which does not stem from mis-using the thing. Trust me as Mac user, we are not suffering, and when rebooting to Windows to play PC-only game, we do not feel any improvement (to put it mildly). What you think is "the most intuitive way to do it" is actually just "the most familiar to me way to do it". There is a term for this, "baby duck syndrome": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/baby_duck_syndrome https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/baby_duck_syndrome > (humorous) The tendency of computer users to always think the system (software or usage paradigm) they originally started using is better.

spyder 11y ago
you are not supposed to use minimize so often. So you are saying he is "holding it wrong"...

rbrcurtis 11y ago

check out "rightzoom" to give you a kb shortcut for maximize. Also, I agree with you that finder is dumb.