4 ms·

You overlook the addendum in the parent post.

chrisseaton 11y ago
I don't think so - it's still 'slower than similar languages with similar features', so not sure what difference it makes that there aren't many languages to compare against, if when we do compare it's still slower. I'd be interested to see what features there are that make the system slower in general, even when they aren't being used. I did a lot of work in my PhD on making odd features not affect the performance of Ruby code when they aren't being used. Do you know what they are?
- Mithaldu 11y ago
  Not directly, sadly. I can make an educated guess though, since Perl 5 has since adopted many of the features thought up for Perl 6. Particularly try looking at its OO features, in regards to roles, parametrized roles, reflection and automated attribute/constructor creation. I can't say with confidence, but i suspect the number of languages having all those features is very low, if existent, and the number of languages with some of these features is also low. Do note that you will have to look closely and follow references to make sure you have a full picture of understanding, since at first glance many of them seem simple, but turn out to offer considerable depth. http://doc.perl6.org/language/objects http://doc.perl6.org/language/objects
  - justinator 11y ago
    I'm not sure if Perl 5 has adopted these features, but these features have been implemented in Perl 5 via modules [0], which is excellent - but sadly, this is vastly different than being in core, or even having the modules in core. I don't even think you can set default attributes in Perl 5 methods. You still have to pass around the object, shift it off - a whole lot of boilerplate. Something as simple as that has been proposed, but it's not been in production for Perl 5. (without Moose and friends, of course) Really, there hasn't been a terrible amount of new features in Perl 5 - and certainly not a new model for OO. Moose is great! And the constant release of CPAN modules is also wonderful, but the core of Perl 5 is full of dragons, which makes backporting features from Perl 6 hard to do in core - and perhaps a good argument can be made against doing that. Example: Moose is a very successful project, but thee given/when statement in the core of Perl was a failure. [0] http://moose.iinteractive.com/en/ http://moose.iinteractive.com/en/
    - Mithaldu 11y ago
      I could write a lot to explain it, but at the end of the day, unless you can accept the following it is not worth the effort. CPAN is the language, perl is just the VM.
- brrt 11y ago
  My main guesses: * multiple dispatch * the meta-object protocol And the thing is, these features are being used all the time, because the core language is built out of them. If you want to see how a language which is not built on these things runs (on the same vm implementation, I might add), I suggest you try nqp :-). https://github.com/nqp/nqp https://github.com/nqp/nqp
  - cygx 11y ago
    Don't forget about the grammar engine - the parsing speed is only in the hundreds as measured in lines of code/s, which is a concern for script startup. I've come up with rather 'creative' workarounds[1] until a more proper solution arrives... [1] https://github.com/cygx/6make/blob/master/6make https://github.com/cygx/6make/blob/master/6make
    - Mithaldu 11y ago
      He does call it a "compiler" in the video. Maybe that's temporary while it's still unoptimized, or a change in direction?
      - eric_the_read 11y ago
        Perl5 historically has compiled to bytecode and then interpreted the bytecode. I imagine that's what's going on here.
- peteretep 11y ago
  > I'd be interested to see what features there are that > make the system slower in general, even when they > aren't being used. I did a lot of work in my PhD on > making odd features not affect the performance of > Ruby code when they aren't being used. I suspect you would be warmly welcomed, and meet many interesting people, in the Perl6 IRC channel, especially if you lead to a link to your PhD.
- raiph 11y ago
  If you click the green Start... button at this page: https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.freenode.net/perl6?nick=chrisseaton https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.freenode.net/perl6?nick=chris... (change the nick if you want) you'll join the real time chat room (IRC) dedicated to developing Perl 6. (Here's today's log if you want to look first: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today You can type 'hi', ask folk to read your above comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10565204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10565204 ), and then seen what unfolds when you chat for a few minutes. :)

I don't think so - it's still 'slower than similar languages with similar features', so not sure what difference it makes that there aren't many languages to compare against, if when we do compare it's still slower. I'd be interested to see what features there are that make the system slower in general, even when they aren't being used. I did a lot of work in my PhD on making odd features not affect the performance of Ruby code when they aren't being used. Do you know what they are?

Mithaldu 11y ago
Not directly, sadly. I can make an educated guess though, since Perl 5 has since adopted many of the features thought up for Perl 6. Particularly try looking at its OO features, in regards to roles, parametrized roles, reflection and automated attribute/constructor creation. I can't say with confidence, but i suspect the number of languages having all those features is very low, if existent, and the number of languages with some of these features is also low. Do note that you will have to look closely and follow references to make sure you have a full picture of understanding, since at first glance many of them seem simple, but turn out to offer considerable depth. http://doc.perl6.org/language/objects http://doc.perl6.org/language/objects
- justinator 11y ago
  I'm not sure if Perl 5 has adopted these features, but these features have been implemented in Perl 5 via modules [0], which is excellent - but sadly, this is vastly different than being in core, or even having the modules in core. I don't even think you can set default attributes in Perl 5 methods. You still have to pass around the object, shift it off - a whole lot of boilerplate. Something as simple as that has been proposed, but it's not been in production for Perl 5. (without Moose and friends, of course) Really, there hasn't been a terrible amount of new features in Perl 5 - and certainly not a new model for OO. Moose is great! And the constant release of CPAN modules is also wonderful, but the core of Perl 5 is full of dragons, which makes backporting features from Perl 6 hard to do in core - and perhaps a good argument can be made against doing that. Example: Moose is a very successful project, but thee given/when statement in the core of Perl was a failure. [0] http://moose.iinteractive.com/en/ http://moose.iinteractive.com/en/
  - Mithaldu 11y ago
    I could write a lot to explain it, but at the end of the day, unless you can accept the following it is not worth the effort. CPAN is the language, perl is just the VM.
brrt 11y ago
My main guesses: * multiple dispatch * the meta-object protocol And the thing is, these features are being used all the time, because the core language is built out of them. If you want to see how a language which is not built on these things runs (on the same vm implementation, I might add), I suggest you try nqp :-). https://github.com/nqp/nqp https://github.com/nqp/nqp
- cygx 11y ago
  Don't forget about the grammar engine - the parsing speed is only in the hundreds as measured in lines of code/s, which is a concern for script startup. I've come up with rather 'creative' workarounds[1] until a more proper solution arrives... [1] https://github.com/cygx/6make/blob/master/6make https://github.com/cygx/6make/blob/master/6make
  - Mithaldu 11y ago
    He does call it a "compiler" in the video. Maybe that's temporary while it's still unoptimized, or a change in direction?
    - eric_the_read 11y ago
      Perl5 historically has compiled to bytecode and then interpreted the bytecode. I imagine that's what's going on here.
peteretep 11y ago
> I'd be interested to see what features there are that > make the system slower in general, even when they > aren't being used. I did a lot of work in my PhD on > making odd features not affect the performance of > Ruby code when they aren't being used. I suspect you would be warmly welcomed, and meet many interesting people, in the Perl6 IRC channel, especially if you lead to a link to your PhD.
raiph 11y ago
If you click the green Start... button at this page: https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.freenode.net/perl6?nick=chrisseaton https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.freenode.net/perl6?nick=chris... (change the nick if you want) you'll join the real time chat room (IRC) dedicated to developing Perl 6. (Here's today's log if you want to look first: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today You can type 'hi', ask folk to read your above comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10565204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10565204 ), and then seen what unfolds when you chat for a few minutes. :)