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Good questions, and I'm happy to answer. I'm going to answer with a philosophical point of view. I'm not trying to dodge the question, but I'm hoping it provide
by mitchellh 11y ago
Good questions, and I'm happy to answer. I'm going to answer with a philosophical point of view. I'm not trying to dodge the question, but I'm hoping it provides you some idea of how we're approaching the problem. If not, just let me know I can try to clarify.
The bigger philosophical idea is the centralization of knowledge. How does Otto know how to deploy a PHP application? Because people who can be considered experts in PHP encoded their knowledge of how to do it. You no longer have to be that expert. (Note that 0.1 deploys PHP in an awful way, 0.2 will do a lot better, thanks to the "experts" coming in). Our goal is to centralize dev/deploy knowledge so that we can focus on higher level problems and teach Otto how to do the details.
The next question is how do I know its safe? Under the covers, Otto uses a lot of production proven tooling. On top of that, we have a really extensive acceptance test suite to verify behavior against real things prior to release. We're doing the best we can do, but Otto will need to earn a lot of trust. We're going to build that trust over time. Note that you can always inspect the ".otto" directory after compiling your Appfile to see the configurations it generates.
You can choose to not use Otto's deployment features. That is completely fine. Our goal is that in less than a year, it does what you'd want it do (help us by teaching it!), and you'll gain trust for it. We have extensive acceptance tests to verify certain behaviors. Of course, we can't cover every edge case but we are going to do our best. This will be a trust building process.
And, I don't blame you being afraid. It is a very new tool that is trying something that is threatening to a lot of people. No worries. Just wait a while; maybe it earns your trust, maybe it doesn't. Take a look at our other tools if you want absolute control, Otto might not be for you. :)
Finally, and this is not a negative thing: the HN crowd is generally not the crowd Otto is aimed at. HN folks are tinkerers, they want to know how things work. That is what makes HN great. They question things and want to know the full details. Otto scares people like that because it _removes_ power from you (much in the same way compilers removed power from assembly programmers). For these folks, I ask you to take a look at the tools that are under Otto: Consul, Nomad, Packer, Terraform, even Vagrant. They provide absolute control. But, Otto is already making great great adoption in the group of people who think "I don't care how, just deploy this application." Think folks that work with well known technologies like the LAMP stack, Wordpress, Rails, etc. all day. Otto for them is fairly revolutionary, because this is a tool that actually makes them more productive and simplifies thing, vs. a lot of the other tools even we've built which appear to add complexity.
And for the folks that want simplicity, what Otto is trying to do is give them industry best practices in addition to simplicity. As an extreme example: we want `otto deploy` to be easier than FTP-ing PHP files to a server, because it isn't a best practice for many reasons. We want you to get an AWS infrastructure designed by experts deployed onto a server that is configured by experts with supporting tools for monitoring, logging, security, and more that only experts would really properly use and configure. These are Otto's aspirations. I believe we can get there, but Otto obviously is new so we haven't proven it yet. But I'm going to try.
I hope that clarifies things!
- twa927 11y agoIt's OK to use heuristics and "magic" in many cases - when it's acceptable to have correctness rate lower than 100%. When an IDE generates some code it's OK that it's correct in 90% cases only, because I can review the code and correct it. But for a deployment tool even 99.99% correctness is not acceptable - it must be 100%. That's why I wouldn't use a deployment tool built on heuristics. You can't make it correct 100% even when having huge number of tests. (unless the tool works like a magic config generator only that I can review)
- mentat 11y agoI'm not sure what real world deployment tools you're talking about, but 99.99% would be pretty good. Actually distributed deployment is "a hard problem".
- brianmurphy 11y agoFor the same reason that "90%" okay IDE code is acceptable for most people, 90% correct deployment will also be okay for most. Primarily because less experienced users could be doing a 40 - 60% optimal deployment today.
- coldtea 11y agoI think you're overstating your case. Have you ever seen a 100% correct deployment? Even if someone thinks they have, I doubt it wont be revealed to have numerous issues.
- jacques_chester 11y agoI've worked on the Cloud Foundry buildpacks team. What mitchellh describes for PHP (taking his example) is something that Cloud Foundry already does: take a codebase, apply heuristics to build and package it, then pass it off to a runtime. Heroku and OpenShift do it too. The thing is that you're worried about snowflake deployment. You're still in the mindset that your app deserves special treatment; if it doesn't stage and launch using community-accepted best practices, then the platform is to blame. I disagree. If your app needs zany configurations just to launch, I think that's a smell. From time to time on buildpacks we would receive bug reports of the form "my app doesn't work". Usually, upon closer inspection, there was an easier fix: follow best practices. The thing to remember about PaaSes like Cloud Foundry, Heroku, OpenShift and now Otto is that they are opinionated by design. The goal is not to provide an infinite supply of knobs and dials. We tried that with mod_perl, with PHP, with Java. It's a freaking nightmare made of sentient, glutinous mud that wants to eat your soul. Our job as engineers is not to tinker. It's to create value for users and businesses. Clinging to the illusion of control is wasteful. When I fly I don't care about how the plane works; I just care that it's fast enough, safe enough and cheap enough.