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I think he might be talking about Stalinism. Or at the very least, just Stalin.

by Svip 11y ago

usaphp 11y ago
So you think Stalin was as bad as ISIS and Nazis? edit: Why downvotes? I've asked a question, I wonder how western people see Stalin in history. I as Russian see him as the one who was involved in defeating Nazis
- jules 11y ago
  We can debate on his motives and methods, but in terms of death count he is as good as any. But you are right that ISIS is more evil in this sense: if ISIS had Stalin's power and military apparatus, they would do more damage than Stalin ever did.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- lemevi 11y ago
  As a Russian do you know about the purges he enforced? What is your opinion about the killing of people just for being educated or having having grievances with stalin's governing. Is it OK to kill people for disagreeing with government policies? Like even the post-Stalin soviet government had disowned him.
  - usaphp 11y ago
    I am absolutely against that, but I am also against blatant lie and made up figures attributed to people died under Stalin's regime, just look at the comment list here, people saying any kinds of figures from 10 to 100 million deaths, so tomorrow somebody who reads this chat will pick the figure which is more appropriate to his point of view and bring it up in his discussion which will be complete lie and un-official data, which will result in more wrong opinions like that.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Stalin, to use a popular term, topped the charts for quite a while. Compared to him these ISIS clowns are rank amateurs.
- clock_tower 11y ago
  I definitely put all three in the same category. Stalin was probably less bad than Hitler (he killed more people than Hitler did historically, but imagine the body count if Hitler had won); but it's not easy to choose among totalitarian regimes -- or aspiring totalitarian regimes, in ISIS' case.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >he killed more people than Hitler did historically Only when counting famines and a civil war type situation among his casualties. He killed much less than Hitler otherwise (which would still be a lot).
- PhasmaFelis 11y ago
  > So you think Stalin was as bad as ISIS and Nazis? The general consensus is that Germany under Hitler killed around 11 million noncombatants. The USSR under Stalin killed at least 20 million, with some estimates ranging much higher. Many people in the west still say that Hitler was worse because he tried to exterminate entire ethnic groups, where Stalin mostly killed anyone that he thought might get in his way. I think they were both monsters, and there's no profit in trying to measure which one was worse. Stalin did help defeat the Nazis. Don't make the mistake of thinking that makes him the good guy. In stories, the villain's enemy is always a hero, but in real life, villains fight other villains all the time.
  - testrun 11y ago
    As far as Stalin and ethnic cleansing goes, he did not do to badly himself (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Sov...).
lemevi 11y ago
...or Bolsheviks, try reading wikipedia about the immediate post-revolution violence called the Red Terror as it will turn your stomach it was truly, truly terrible [0] ...or Maoism "struggle sessions" which resulted in 2 million deaths [1] ...or just read about mass killings in communist regimes[2]. Clearly communist governments have mass killed a lot of people. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_...
- jtblin 11y ago
  The period after the French Revolution that threw down monarchy and more or less brought democracy to Europe was called the Terror [1] as well and tens of thousands of people were guillotined or executed (that was quite a lot of people at the time). Unfortunately, when oppressed people overcome the power in place, bad things happen as the results of the change in the balance of powers. IMHO this is similar to what happened when Bolsheviks took over the tsars and Communist Chinese put down the Emperor. I am of course not condoning violence (I am French and still in shock with what just happened) but I think these examples are sometimes more a sign of the people getting rid of hundreds (thousands) years of oppression than a particular political alignment. Unfortunately history is rich of mass killings in the name of politics, religions and other ideologies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror
clock_tower 11y ago
I'm talking about Lenin (founder of the VChK/KGB), and Stalin, and Mao, and Pol Pot, and the Shining Path, and the Red Army Faction, and I could go on but the other names escape me. When a political movement kills more people than Hitler, I'm fine with mentioning it in the same breath as Hitler.

I think he might be talking about Stalinism. Or at the very least, just Stalin.

by Svip 11y ago

I think he might be talking about Stalinism. Or at the very least, just Stalin.

So you think Stalin was as bad as ISIS and Nazis? edit: Why downvotes? I've asked a question, I wonder how western people see Stalin in history. I as Russian see him as the one who was involved in defeating Nazis

jules 11y ago
We can debate on his motives and methods, but in terms of death count he is as good as any. But you are right that ISIS is more evil in this sense: if ISIS had Stalin's power and military apparatus, they would do more damage than Stalin ever did.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
lemevi 11y ago
As a Russian do you know about the purges he enforced? What is your opinion about the killing of people just for being educated or having having grievances with stalin's governing. Is it OK to kill people for disagreeing with government policies? Like even the post-Stalin soviet government had disowned him.
- usaphp 11y ago
  I am absolutely against that, but I am also against blatant lie and made up figures attributed to people died under Stalin's regime, just look at the comment list here, people saying any kinds of figures from 10 to 100 million deaths, so tomorrow somebody who reads this chat will pick the figure which is more appropriate to his point of view and bring it up in his discussion which will be complete lie and un-official data, which will result in more wrong opinions like that.
jacquesm 11y ago
Stalin, to use a popular term, topped the charts for quite a while. Compared to him these ISIS clowns are rank amateurs.
clock_tower 11y ago
I definitely put all three in the same category. Stalin was probably less bad than Hitler (he killed more people than Hitler did historically, but imagine the body count if Hitler had won); but it's not easy to choose among totalitarian regimes -- or aspiring totalitarian regimes, in ISIS' case.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >he killed more people than Hitler did historically Only when counting famines and a civil war type situation among his casualties. He killed much less than Hitler otherwise (which would still be a lot).
PhasmaFelis 11y ago
> So you think Stalin was as bad as ISIS and Nazis? The general consensus is that Germany under Hitler killed around 11 million noncombatants. The USSR under Stalin killed at least 20 million, with some estimates ranging much higher. Many people in the west still say that Hitler was worse because he tried to exterminate entire ethnic groups, where Stalin mostly killed anyone that he thought might get in his way. I think they were both monsters, and there's no profit in trying to measure which one was worse. Stalin did help defeat the Nazis. Don't make the mistake of thinking that makes him the good guy. In stories, the villain's enemy is always a hero, but in real life, villains fight other villains all the time.
- testrun 11y ago
  As far as Stalin and ethnic cleansing goes, he did not do to badly himself (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Sov...).

lemevi 11y ago

...or Bolsheviks, try reading wikipedia about the immediate post-revolution violence called the Red Terror as it will turn your stomach it was truly, truly terrible [0] ...or Maoism "struggle sessions" which resulted in 2 million deaths [1] ...or just read about mass killings in communist regimes[2]. Clearly communist governments have mass killed a lot of people. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_...

jtblin 11y ago
The period after the French Revolution that threw down monarchy and more or less brought democracy to Europe was called the Terror [1] as well and tens of thousands of people were guillotined or executed (that was quite a lot of people at the time). Unfortunately, when oppressed people overcome the power in place, bad things happen as the results of the change in the balance of powers. IMHO this is similar to what happened when Bolsheviks took over the tsars and Communist Chinese put down the Emperor. I am of course not condoning violence (I am French and still in shock with what just happened) but I think these examples are sometimes more a sign of the people getting rid of hundreds (thousands) years of oppression than a particular political alignment. Unfortunately history is rich of mass killings in the name of politics, religions and other ideologies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror

clock_tower 11y ago

I'm talking about Lenin (founder of the VChK/KGB), and Stalin, and Mao, and Pol Pot, and the Shining Path, and the Red Army Faction, and I could go on but the other names escape me. When a political movement kills more people than Hitler, I'm fine with mentioning it in the same breath as Hitler.