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If we didn't need to secure their oil by supporting/deposing despots in the region, and didn't want to provide the Israelis with military/political/financial su

If we didn't need to secure their oil by supporting/deposing despots in the region, and didn't want to provide the Israelis with military/political/financial support then we would not be dealing with any of this carnage. Their attempts to fight back will only escalate the situation, and the carnage will continue. Edit: I'm not advocating that we not support Israel. I'm simply stating a hard truth regarding "why they hate us".

13thLetter 11y ago
Maaaaaaaybe wait until the bodies have cooled before you start searching for a way to blame the Jews? :(
- Fluid_Mechanics 11y ago
  This has nothing to do with blaming the Jews. The reason for all this carnage is obvious and we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking otherwise.
  - roosterjm2k2 11y ago
    You're right... but its not the reason, its the excuse. And a weak one. Killing civilians doesn't work, and it never has... terrorism never wins... unless your a huge nation like the USA, then it wins...
  - chroma 11y ago
    Obvious? I'm still not following. I can't figure out how somebody goes from, "The US is responsible for the death and suffering of my countrymen." to "Let's kill lots of French civilians."
- littletimmy 11y ago
  Israel = nation state. Jews = ethno-religious group. Completely different.
  - acjohnson55 11y ago
    Distinct concepts? Sure. But completely different is an exaggeration. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_and_Democratic_State https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_and_Democratic_State
    - littletimmy 11y ago
      Look, I'm sure Israel wants to be a jewish state, just like Pakistan wants to be an Islamic state and some people want the US to be a Christian state. That doesn't mean much except politics. The fact of the matter is that nation states are very different beasts from ethno-religious groups.
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ofirnachum 11y ago
Assuming that the majority of the problem will go away with the end of the support of Israel is very wishful thinking. There are many complex causes of events like this and blaming Israel is pure scapegoating.
- gozo 11y ago
  I don't think it's "pure scapegoating". It's very much a relevant part to understand the mechanics behind thing like this. The French ban on anti-Isreali demonstrations might very well have helped radicalization and recruitment of young people with non-french backgrounds. So might the last years worsening conflict in Palestine. It shouldn't be a particularly controversial statement to say that there are things that Isreal do, like settlements, that is not good for the security of EU/US.
  - warsheep 11y ago
    A lot of "may" and "might" in your reply, and absolutely no facts. The facts are that on ISIS' agenda, fighting Palestinian groups such as Hamas has a higher priority than fighting Israel [1][2], yet people in this thread still manage to "lightly" blame the Israelis, the US, basically anyone except those responsible, as if these people are incapable of independent thought. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/world/middleeast/isis-abu-bakr-baghdadi-caliph-wahhabi.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/world/middleeast/isis-abu-... [2] http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/islamic-state-fighting-hamas-priority-before-israel.html http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/islamic-st...
    - threeseed 11y ago
      > lightly" blame the Israelis, the US, basically anyone except those responsible. This argument is so stupid. Everyone is blaming the people responsible. That's a given. The reason people are blaming Israel and the US is because they are indirectly responsible since their actions are used as recruitment tools.
      - 11y ago
dbcooper 11y ago
Are you saying that France is a big supporter of Israel?
IvanDenisovich 11y ago
So far Israel hasn't featured high on Isis' agenda, and there have been no significant isis attacks on Israeli targets. This is despite the fact that they almost share a border. Neither are Palestinians' rights a top priority for isis. What's left of the the residents of Yarmouk refugee camp will testify to that. In short, Isis is not about israel vs palestine, it's about a deeper social/religious clash of ideas. So maybe before you try to ratonalize isis, you actually read up on their core beliefs. You might find out that this is one murderous organization whose actions you can't blame on israel.
- threeseed 11y ago
  Exactly right. The plight of the Palestinians is a significant recruiting tool but that's all it is. ISIS has no plans to liberate them. The purpose of ISIS is exactly what they say it is. To establish their own state governed by hard-right Islamic ideals. And the reason they have so much support is largely driven from the perceived persecution of Muslims worldwide e.g. xenophobia in Western countries, drone strikes on innocent civilians etc.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    I'm not too worried about ISIS running up against Israel, but I'm very worried about the connection between ISIS and Pakistan.
    - mercurial 11y ago
      Is ISIS really linked to Pakistan? I understand there are strong suspicions of connections between Turkey and ISIS (at least pre-bombings). But I hadn't heard of a link with Pakistan until now. I thought Pakistani intelligence was happy coddling the "right" talibans and their home-grown anti-Indian terrorist groups. Do you have any evidence this connection?
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2015/05/25/national/nato-says-isis-in-pakistan/ http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2015/05/25/national/nato-say... And a ton of other news articles on the same subject. Pakistan is super dangerous because it is not all that hard to imagine a number of groups within Pakistan switching allegiance. It is also super dangerous because it is a nuclear power and has a long history of factions inside it trying to pull Pakistan into a much more radical direction.
mercurial 11y ago
One of the attackers was heard saying it was about Syria. This isn't about Israel at all.
- Reef 11y ago
  What one of them allegedly shouted, may not be a proof that the whole thing was about Syria.
oh_sigh 11y ago
How do you know? Imagine another 700m people even poorer than they are now. That might breed extremism I'm sure western meddling can explain some of the extremist responses, but I'm not sure it can explain all of them.
- iofj 11y ago
  Looking at those arrested for joining ISIS here in my home country I don't know how you can say that. They were not poor, they were not excluded or treated in a racist manner at all. And there are very little lines between them, men and women, from different parts of the country, from different backgrounds (semi-rural versus rural, native/non-native, dutch, french, english-speaking, rich/middle class (I'd say no poor people so far), ...). About the only link between the ISIS members from Western Europe is that they're muslims. Even that is "not 100%" true, since there are also Christians and some Kurds traveling to Syria/Iraq. The examples of that I know went there to help, of course (medically in 2 cases, sort of an amateur doctors without borders, mostly because neither doctors without borders, nor the red cross risk sending people there, but they did have family there). Of course we don't know that's all they did. At least they're claiming to provide medical help, none of the muslims who got caught going to Syria ever even bothered to say they were going for any reason other than fighting, and some saying they went off for killing and some shit about allah. This is a convicted ISIS terrorist that went off to kill people and came back, talking to a reporter of the public service about how and why : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKg2UsfnxHc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKg2UsfnxHc Claiming that people like this are poor or treated badly by the country they were born into is moronic. Meanwhile the tensions between (sunni) muslims and everybody, literally everybody else are rising ever more. Fights and crimes against the "natives", and every other minority, from the Jews of Antwerp to the Turks of Molenbeek (there is a large (sometimes very) atheist contingent amongst Turks).
bjourne 11y ago
We had a suicide bomber in Sweden who blew himself up because he was angry that the government didn't arrest Lars Vilks, an artist who had made some drawings of Muhammed which he thought was offensive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Vilks_Muhammad_drawings_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Vilks_Muhammad_drawings_c...). Swedish Muslim terrorists also tried to create a massacre at Jyllandsposten because of their drawings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_carto...). These terrorists were born and raised in Sweden, had a better standard of living than me, studied engineering in university and had nothing to complain about. Sweden doesn't attack any countries, we love Palestine and dislike Israel (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/30/sweden-officially-recognises-state-palestine http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/30/sweden-official...) and we shelter 80-100,000 Muslim refugees/year. What should we do exactly? Jail all cartoonists and make it a crime to insult Islam?
- jamesblonde 11y ago
  Hard to know how people will react here in Sweden. It's an awful tragedy. I suspect it will lead to large changes in how Europe works, probably not for the better. Just as happened post September 11.
- gozo 11y ago
  Sweden hasn't been as affected as other countries. Instability will always spill over from conflicts, there's nothing special about this era. RAF occupied the West German embassy in Stockholm in 1975 and planned to kidnap a Swedish politician. To some extent it's the same for France, they didn't invade Iraq, created Guantanamo or other things to escalate the conflict yet they are targeted. Maybe because they have a lot of dealings in the Middle East or to please IS supporters or it's just convenient. I'm sure people will speculate a lot about this in the coming months.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    The case of a 'connection' for France is much easier to establish than for Sweden.
olavk 11y ago
It is amazing how many in this thread who make declarations about the underlying political causes for this tragedy. As far as I know, no group have yet claimed responsibilities and very little is known about the perpetrators at this point. Theories have been put forth that they are either IS or al-Queda, two groups with quite different history and agenda. And it is still not confirmed it is either. So any attempt at political explanation at this point is pure knee-jerk.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  "Paris attacks: Islamic State says killings were response to Syria strikes" http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/14/paris-terror-attacks-attackers-dead-mass-killing-live-updates http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/14/paris-terr...
alfapla 11y ago
Actually, both Israel and Palestines are a bit befuddled that their eternal little conflict has lost a good deal of importance to the rest of the world in view of the bigger events in the Mideast. Which probably is a good thing, since both parties were acting like the spoilt children of global attention.

13thLetter 11y ago

Maaaaaaaybe wait until the bodies have cooled before you start searching for a way to blame the Jews? :(

Fluid_Mechanics 11y ago
This has nothing to do with blaming the Jews. The reason for all this carnage is obvious and we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking otherwise.
- roosterjm2k2 11y ago
  You're right... but its not the reason, its the excuse. And a weak one. Killing civilians doesn't work, and it never has... terrorism never wins... unless your a huge nation like the USA, then it wins...
- chroma 11y ago
  Obvious? I'm still not following. I can't figure out how somebody goes from, "The US is responsible for the death and suffering of my countrymen." to "Let's kill lots of French civilians."
littletimmy 11y ago
Israel = nation state. Jews = ethno-religious group. Completely different.
- acjohnson55 11y ago
  Distinct concepts? Sure. But completely different is an exaggeration. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_and_Democratic_State https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_and_Democratic_State
  - littletimmy 11y ago
    Look, I'm sure Israel wants to be a jewish state, just like Pakistan wants to be an Islamic state and some people want the US to be a Christian state. That doesn't mean much except politics. The fact of the matter is that nation states are very different beasts from ethno-religious groups.
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ofirnachum 11y ago

Assuming that the majority of the problem will go away with the end of the support of Israel is very wishful thinking. There are many complex causes of events like this and blaming Israel is pure scapegoating.

gozo 11y ago
I don't think it's "pure scapegoating". It's very much a relevant part to understand the mechanics behind thing like this. The French ban on anti-Isreali demonstrations might very well have helped radicalization and recruitment of young people with non-french backgrounds. So might the last years worsening conflict in Palestine. It shouldn't be a particularly controversial statement to say that there are things that Isreal do, like settlements, that is not good for the security of EU/US.
- warsheep 11y ago
  A lot of "may" and "might" in your reply, and absolutely no facts. The facts are that on ISIS' agenda, fighting Palestinian groups such as Hamas has a higher priority than fighting Israel [1][2], yet people in this thread still manage to "lightly" blame the Israelis, the US, basically anyone except those responsible, as if these people are incapable of independent thought. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/world/middleeast/isis-abu-bakr-baghdadi-caliph-wahhabi.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/world/middleeast/isis-abu-... [2] http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/islamic-state-fighting-hamas-priority-before-israel.html http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/islamic-st...
  - threeseed 11y ago
    > lightly" blame the Israelis, the US, basically anyone except those responsible. This argument is so stupid. Everyone is blaming the people responsible. That's a given. The reason people are blaming Israel and the US is because they are indirectly responsible since their actions are used as recruitment tools.
    - 11y ago

dbcooper 11y ago

Are you saying that France is a big supporter of Israel?

IvanDenisovich 11y ago

So far Israel hasn't featured high on Isis' agenda, and there have been no significant isis attacks on Israeli targets. This is despite the fact that they almost share a border. Neither are Palestinians' rights a top priority for isis. What's left of the the residents of Yarmouk refugee camp will testify to that. In short, Isis is not about israel vs palestine, it's about a deeper social/religious clash of ideas. So maybe before you try to ratonalize isis, you actually read up on their core beliefs. You might find out that this is one murderous organization whose actions you can't blame on israel.

threeseed 11y ago
Exactly right. The plight of the Palestinians is a significant recruiting tool but that's all it is. ISIS has no plans to liberate them. The purpose of ISIS is exactly what they say it is. To establish their own state governed by hard-right Islamic ideals. And the reason they have so much support is largely driven from the perceived persecution of Muslims worldwide e.g. xenophobia in Western countries, drone strikes on innocent civilians etc.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  I'm not too worried about ISIS running up against Israel, but I'm very worried about the connection between ISIS and Pakistan.
  - mercurial 11y ago
    Is ISIS really linked to Pakistan? I understand there are strong suspicions of connections between Turkey and ISIS (at least pre-bombings). But I hadn't heard of a link with Pakistan until now. I thought Pakistani intelligence was happy coddling the "right" talibans and their home-grown anti-Indian terrorist groups. Do you have any evidence this connection?
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2015/05/25/national/nato-says-isis-in-pakistan/ http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2015/05/25/national/nato-say... And a ton of other news articles on the same subject. Pakistan is super dangerous because it is not all that hard to imagine a number of groups within Pakistan switching allegiance. It is also super dangerous because it is a nuclear power and has a long history of factions inside it trying to pull Pakistan into a much more radical direction.

mercurial 11y ago

One of the attackers was heard saying it was about Syria. This isn't about Israel at all.

Reef 11y ago
What one of them allegedly shouted, may not be a proof that the whole thing was about Syria.

oh_sigh 11y ago

How do you know? Imagine another 700m people even poorer than they are now. That might breed extremism I'm sure western meddling can explain some of the extremist responses, but I'm not sure it can explain all of them.

iofj 11y ago
Looking at those arrested for joining ISIS here in my home country I don't know how you can say that. They were not poor, they were not excluded or treated in a racist manner at all. And there are very little lines between them, men and women, from different parts of the country, from different backgrounds (semi-rural versus rural, native/non-native, dutch, french, english-speaking, rich/middle class (I'd say no poor people so far), ...). About the only link between the ISIS members from Western Europe is that they're muslims. Even that is "not 100%" true, since there are also Christians and some Kurds traveling to Syria/Iraq. The examples of that I know went there to help, of course (medically in 2 cases, sort of an amateur doctors without borders, mostly because neither doctors without borders, nor the red cross risk sending people there, but they did have family there). Of course we don't know that's all they did. At least they're claiming to provide medical help, none of the muslims who got caught going to Syria ever even bothered to say they were going for any reason other than fighting, and some saying they went off for killing and some shit about allah. This is a convicted ISIS terrorist that went off to kill people and came back, talking to a reporter of the public service about how and why : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKg2UsfnxHc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKg2UsfnxHc Claiming that people like this are poor or treated badly by the country they were born into is moronic. Meanwhile the tensions between (sunni) muslims and everybody, literally everybody else are rising ever more. Fights and crimes against the "natives", and every other minority, from the Jews of Antwerp to the Turks of Molenbeek (there is a large (sometimes very) atheist contingent amongst Turks).

bjourne 11y ago

We had a suicide bomber in Sweden who blew himself up because he was angry that the government didn't arrest Lars Vilks, an artist who had made some drawings of Muhammed which he thought was offensive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Vilks_Muhammad_drawings_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Vilks_Muhammad_drawings_c...). Swedish Muslim terrorists also tried to create a massacre at Jyllandsposten because of their drawings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_carto...). These terrorists were born and raised in Sweden, had a better standard of living than me, studied engineering in university and had nothing to complain about. Sweden doesn't attack any countries, we love Palestine and dislike Israel (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/30/sweden-officially-recognises-state-palestine http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/30/sweden-official...) and we shelter 80-100,000 Muslim refugees/year. What should we do exactly? Jail all cartoonists and make it a crime to insult Islam?

jamesblonde 11y ago
Hard to know how people will react here in Sweden. It's an awful tragedy. I suspect it will lead to large changes in how Europe works, probably not for the better. Just as happened post September 11.
gozo 11y ago
Sweden hasn't been as affected as other countries. Instability will always spill over from conflicts, there's nothing special about this era. RAF occupied the West German embassy in Stockholm in 1975 and planned to kidnap a Swedish politician. To some extent it's the same for France, they didn't invade Iraq, created Guantanamo or other things to escalate the conflict yet they are targeted. Maybe because they have a lot of dealings in the Middle East or to please IS supporters or it's just convenient. I'm sure people will speculate a lot about this in the coming months.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  The case of a 'connection' for France is much easier to establish than for Sweden.

olavk 11y ago

It is amazing how many in this thread who make declarations about the underlying political causes for this tragedy. As far as I know, no group have yet claimed responsibilities and very little is known about the perpetrators at this point. Theories have been put forth that they are either IS or al-Queda, two groups with quite different history and agenda. And it is still not confirmed it is either. So any attempt at political explanation at this point is pure knee-jerk.

jacquesm 11y ago
"Paris attacks: Islamic State says killings were response to Syria strikes" http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/14/paris-terror-attacks-attackers-dead-mass-killing-live-updates http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/14/paris-terr...

alfapla 11y ago

Actually, both Israel and Palestines are a bit befuddled that their eternal little conflict has lost a good deal of importance to the rest of the world in view of the bigger events in the Mideast. Which probably is a good thing, since both parties were acting like the spoilt children of global attention.