4 ms·

> Islam has nothing to do with this whatsoever I recognize your username and I know you are highly intelligent, but how can you ignore all the daily evidence,

> Islam has nothing to do with this whatsoever I recognize your username and I know you are highly intelligent, but how can you ignore all the daily evidence, crime statistics, the shows of intolerance + hatred + violence that Muslims put out towards the natives, all the logic and reason, and all the correlations about the Muslim population in Europe?

jacquesm 11y ago
Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few. The Muslims that I know are very much upset about all this and fear for their future, if anybody is upset at the acts of terrorism by their nominal brethren it is them because they are confronted on a daily basis with the fall-out from all this. The scary bit is that the backlash against them drives them to become defensive and that's the one thing that should not happen.
- powertower 11y ago
  > Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few. There is much more to the story than fitting Muslims into the categories of: "non-terrorist" and "active-terrorist". The fact still remains that Muslim [and other immigrating] populations in Europe negatively impact every single metric of social-ills (rapes, murders, acid-burning attacks, honor-killings / enormous housing and welfare costs / emergence of no-go zones / overall intolerance towards you / and so on and on). This is the further split of society that you are talking about. It happens when you bring in incompatible groups into your home, and groups that do not reciprocate your good will, tolerance, and open mindedness. It makes no difference that terrorists are few when double-digits (20%-90%) of Muslims (depending on region and % of population they make up) think that death should be the penalty for apostasy, that suicide bombings are justified, and so on.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    So, let's first establish that these are individuals and that while for some of the individuals targeted your claims hold true there are many others that did successfully integrate. For the rest I'll ignore those but they exist and their numbers are vast, much larger than the numbers of those that failed to integrate but since they're not 'part of the problem' I'll pretend we're not talking about them (though they should be talked about because they apparently hold the key to at least a part of the solution). You're forgetting a few not-so-juicy details. Most of these people that failed to integrate carry local passports and to the law they are just as French (or Dutch, or German or whatever) as the rest of the people living there. As a rule all these countries practice freedom of religion so whatever the effect the immigrating (grand)parents had on the statistics of decades past the problem is the effects today. And you can't attack anybody on grounds of religion without opening up the traditional make-up of the country as well so that's right out because it would make a great many people in various power structures extremely nervous. The failure then is to fail to fully integrate these people, part of the failure is theirs, part of the failure is ours. The fact that the younger generation (and definitely not all of them!) are unable to get work, unable to find meaning in life and unable to get ahead no matter how hard they try creates a level of frustration that I can only imagine, but which broke through partially in the riots in France a couple of years ago. As far as the 'double digits' are concerned, right now an ultra-rightwing party holds > 25% of the vote in NL, that doesn't make all the Dutch racists any more than 30% of the Muslims agreeing with some or all of the terrorist activities makes all of the Muslims supporters of terrorism. It's each and every person as an individual that matters. And if a person specifically supports these acts then you can go after them with whatever tools are available but until then there is no reason to act in a generalizing manner. That only makes the problem (potentially much) worse.
    - powertower 11y ago
      > It's each and every person as an individual that matters. The human race has been based on groups/collectives since its inception. Even before we were Homo-sapiens, we were forming natural groups that defined us - with each group producing, collecting, and evolving individuals of similar attributes and behaviors. Once you mismatch a group into another, some type of violence always arises. And we are mismatching on a lot here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0sRmpvdIIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0sRmpvdIIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2nlIfn8tNA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2nlIfn8tNA In addition to the above, the recent floods of immigration into Europe is also not working because the groups that are coming in are largely doing so for the immediate benefits (ex: mindset that thinks welfare is "salary") and not because they recognize and respect European values. The further this goes on, the worse it gets, and its becoming a disaster.
  - spopejoy 11y ago
    Let's say your singling out of Muslims as somehow worse than the rest of humanity has any basis in fact or reason: what's the conclusion? close the borders; kick out the muslims; round up those who won't leave; make the rest sign a loyalty oath? Muslims are in the West, much to your horror, and the reasons they are here just might have something to do with France's imperial past and present. But they're here: so what's your solution fella?
- planck01 11y ago
  > Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few. The same holds for fascists. Fascists terrorists are driven by their ideology, which in itself can be evil and wrong. That many adherents to an ideology are not violent is in itself not an indication of lack of evil. Even if there were billions of fascists, this wouldn't prove lack of evil of fascism. The reason that people out of principle will not condemn Islam in western society is that is seen as 'another culture' and a 'minority' in the West. Both aspects are seen as a source for racism, which is bad. But therefore it seems hard to truly look at Islam as a possible source of evil. And I think it is.
- GnwbZHiU 11y ago
  Most muslims are peaceful => true. But what if we see it differently? From 100 terrorists, how many of them are muslims?

jacquesm 11y ago

Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few. The Muslims that I know are very much upset about all this and fear for their future, if anybody is upset at the acts of terrorism by their nominal brethren it is them because they are confronted on a daily basis with the fall-out from all this. The scary bit is that the backlash against them drives them to become defensive and that's the one thing that should not happen.

powertower 11y ago
> Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few. There is much more to the story than fitting Muslims into the categories of: "non-terrorist" and "active-terrorist". The fact still remains that Muslim [and other immigrating] populations in Europe negatively impact every single metric of social-ills (rapes, murders, acid-burning attacks, honor-killings / enormous housing and welfare costs / emergence of no-go zones / overall intolerance towards you / and so on and on). This is the further split of society that you are talking about. It happens when you bring in incompatible groups into your home, and groups that do not reciprocate your good will, tolerance, and open mindedness. It makes no difference that terrorists are few when double-digits (20%-90%) of Muslims (depending on region and % of population they make up) think that death should be the penalty for apostasy, that suicide bombings are justified, and so on.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  So, let's first establish that these are individuals and that while for some of the individuals targeted your claims hold true there are many others that did successfully integrate. For the rest I'll ignore those but they exist and their numbers are vast, much larger than the numbers of those that failed to integrate but since they're not 'part of the problem' I'll pretend we're not talking about them (though they should be talked about because they apparently hold the key to at least a part of the solution). You're forgetting a few not-so-juicy details. Most of these people that failed to integrate carry local passports and to the law they are just as French (or Dutch, or German or whatever) as the rest of the people living there. As a rule all these countries practice freedom of religion so whatever the effect the immigrating (grand)parents had on the statistics of decades past the problem is the effects today. And you can't attack anybody on grounds of religion without opening up the traditional make-up of the country as well so that's right out because it would make a great many people in various power structures extremely nervous. The failure then is to fail to fully integrate these people, part of the failure is theirs, part of the failure is ours. The fact that the younger generation (and definitely not all of them!) are unable to get work, unable to find meaning in life and unable to get ahead no matter how hard they try creates a level of frustration that I can only imagine, but which broke through partially in the riots in France a couple of years ago. As far as the 'double digits' are concerned, right now an ultra-rightwing party holds > 25% of the vote in NL, that doesn't make all the Dutch racists any more than 30% of the Muslims agreeing with some or all of the terrorist activities makes all of the Muslims supporters of terrorism. It's each and every person as an individual that matters. And if a person specifically supports these acts then you can go after them with whatever tools are available but until then there is no reason to act in a generalizing manner. That only makes the problem (potentially much) worse.
  - powertower 11y ago
    > It's each and every person as an individual that matters. The human race has been based on groups/collectives since its inception. Even before we were Homo-sapiens, we were forming natural groups that defined us - with each group producing, collecting, and evolving individuals of similar attributes and behaviors. Once you mismatch a group into another, some type of violence always arises. And we are mismatching on a lot here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0sRmpvdIIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0sRmpvdIIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2nlIfn8tNA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2nlIfn8tNA In addition to the above, the recent floods of immigration into Europe is also not working because the groups that are coming in are largely doing so for the immediate benefits (ex: mindset that thinks welfare is "salary") and not because they recognize and respect European values. The further this goes on, the worse it gets, and its becoming a disaster.
- spopejoy 11y ago
  Let's say your singling out of Muslims as somehow worse than the rest of humanity has any basis in fact or reason: what's the conclusion? close the borders; kick out the muslims; round up those who won't leave; make the rest sign a loyalty oath? Muslims are in the West, much to your horror, and the reasons they are here just might have something to do with France's imperial past and present. But they're here: so what's your solution fella?
planck01 11y ago
> Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few. The same holds for fascists. Fascists terrorists are driven by their ideology, which in itself can be evil and wrong. That many adherents to an ideology are not violent is in itself not an indication of lack of evil. Even if there were billions of fascists, this wouldn't prove lack of evil of fascism. The reason that people out of principle will not condemn Islam in western society is that is seen as 'another culture' and a 'minority' in the West. Both aspects are seen as a source for racism, which is bad. But therefore it seems hard to truly look at Islam as a possible source of evil. And I think it is.
GnwbZHiU 11y ago
Most muslims are peaceful => true. But what if we see it differently? From 100 terrorists, how many of them are muslims?