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According to iTele there are now 118 dead. Edit: Now it's up to 140. What a sad day :(

by po1nter 11y ago

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
140 latest report.
brwr 11y ago
The Guardian is reporting at least 140 at this point. Unfortunately, the number will only rise.
toyg 11y ago
Reworded to avoid offence (hopefully): deaths are not irrelevant, but their exact precise number is irrelevant. What matters is the scale of the security failure, compounded by the fact that they suffered a similar one less than a year ago and they were currently on high-alert (because they've only just started bombing Syria). The knowledge that a network could carry out such a widespread and well-coordinated attack without being preempted, in a situation of maximum alert, will heavy on the minds of any French citizen regardless of whether victims were 118 or 119. Basically, the French security system has been revealed as completely ineffective. That is a huge problem.
- chinathrow 11y ago
  No, the number of innocent killed people is never irrelevant. Every single dead person is one dead person too much. Full stop. Edit: no need to further downvote as parent has changed his statement. Thanks parent poster.
  - toyg 11y ago
    Of course. But by the same reasoning, there is no difference if there were 1 or 118 victims, which is my point. It's not about keeping score.
    - chinathrow 11y ago
      If you agree that the number is not irrelevant, it would be very kind of you to revoke that statement. It's an insult to the dead and to the families of the dead. Thank you. Edit: no need to further downvote as parent has changed his statement. Thanks parent poster.
  - rangibaby 11y ago
    This kind of thinking led to the War on Terror, which led to a rise in extreme Islam which led to...
- hyperliner 11y ago
  Not all craziness is preventable by a security system.
  - pliny 11y ago
    You're right, but attacks that require supplies (especially supplies that aren't dual use, like guns) and coordination between many parties, are the types of attacks that the modern security apparatus is optimized for preventing.
  - toyg 11y ago
    That might be the case, but this particular strain of craziness was well-publicised and even experienced less than a year ago in the same place. One would expect some antibodies would have been developed by now, especially considering that French foreign policy is not getting any softer.
    - buserror 11y ago
      The problem is that the 'foreign' policy is irrelevant. The 'foreign' policy is made to appear the state is 'doing something' while MOST of the problem has been in the country for many, many years. Most of the problem is that the youngsters of immigrant stock have not been integrated, and have nothing else to do than turn to crime and/or religion, so are just RIPE for radicalism... And there's little the state can do about THAT. they can't send war planes to the banlieus -- it's a lot easier to play tough and send warplanes somewhere else, ignoring the local problem of the ghethos. And I don't have a proposal to make it all better either. It was an unsolvable problem already in france when I grew up there, and there's very little that can be done that hasn't been tried already.
      - toyg 11y ago
        Of course craziness can explode in many ways, but denying that foreign policy is a huge trigger is just disingenuous. How many suicide bombers have you seen in Canada or Sweden? And they have a huge migrant population, larger than France in percentage terms, with various degrees of (non-)integration. But they don't set other countries on fire nor they usually bomb anyone, so they don't get hit by paramilitary networks.
- electromage 11y ago
  It's relevant to the families and friends of those killed.
  - blisterpeanuts 11y ago
    Yes, I agree. Immense tragedy and I fear the numbers will go up before this is over.
  - JadeNB 11y ago
    Why? Is the death of a loved one any more, or less, tragic because it is one among a hundred?
- serge2k 11y ago
  You could probably phrase that first sentence a little better.
- sosborn 11y ago
  > Basically, the French security system has been revealed as completely ineffective. How can a country possibly prevent these things while still maintaining a free society?
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > How can a country possibly prevent these things while still maintaining a free society? You can't even prevent them when not being a free society. Its not like terrorism only occurs in free societies.
    - RogtamBar 11y ago
      This is bullshit and you know this. There is very little chance of anyone successfully getting up to terrorism if society is a) riddled with informers b) detaining people without charges is legal c) totalitarian ideology and political supremacy makes the establishment of parallel societies impossible. Border controls make importing terrorists next to impossible. The former eastern Bloc had no terrorist incidents. Pulling them off would be harder, the state would cover it up, etc. Just like it had practically no mob. It did have a great many terrorists, mostly in various training camps.
      - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
        > The former eastern Bloc had no terrorist incidents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_the_Sovi...
      - rdtsc 11y ago
        > The former eastern Bloc had no terrorist incidents. Yeah, the whole Eastern Block was one big terrorist incident All the terrorists in the world combined have nothing on Stalin's death count.
      - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
        Usually in such a society the state is the terrorist.
- espadrine 11y ago
  > Basically, the French security system has been revealed as completely ineffective. As an aside, strong suveillance laws were voted earlier this year. https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lexpress.fr%2Factualite%2Fpolitique%2Fle-senat-adopte-le-tres-conteste-projet-de-loi-sur-le-renseignement_1687836.html&edit-text=&act=url https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...
  - toyg 11y ago
    Exactly. Fat lot of good it did to them. Clearly the whole approach is simply wrong.
  - slantedview 11y ago
    If you see and hear everything, you will know nothing.
- stsp 11y ago
  > Basically, the French security system has been revealed as completely ineffective. That is what matters. The attacks are horrible and a security system which effectively prevents them would be just as horrible. This problem won't be fixed without a major shift in paradigm on either side. Perhaps not in our lifetime but oh how nice it would be...
- Asbostos 11y ago
  They already failed to prevent 600 common murders each year. You could call that completely ineffective or you could call it diminishing returns on investment in security. You can't prevent all of them without an unacceptable number of false positives or harsh restrictions on freedom. Anyone who's upset by this and doesn't have a personal connection to the victims is not being rational. They should be upset by all other killings - the vast majority which don't get into the international news, let along HN. Those are far more prevalent, and perhaps easier to prevent because they're done by amatures.
lnalx 11y ago
118 inside the theater and 40 in other locations in and around Paris
- Keats 11y ago
  itele says 118 total with around 80 in the bataclan
  - lnalx 11y ago
    Watching iTele now too, numbers 40 or 80 aren't confirmed yet. EDIT: 40 confirmed.
hardcastle 11y ago
158 deaths in total, so terrible

According to iTele there are now 118 dead. Edit: Now it's up to 140. What a sad day :(

by po1nter 11y ago

According to iTele there are now 118 dead. Edit: Now it's up to 140. What a sad day :(

vezzy-fnord 11y ago

140 latest report.

brwr 11y ago

The Guardian is reporting at least 140 at this point. Unfortunately, the number will only rise.

toyg 11y ago

Reworded to avoid offence (hopefully): deaths are not irrelevant, but their exact precise number is irrelevant. What matters is the scale of the security failure, compounded by the fact that they suffered a similar one less than a year ago and they were currently on high-alert (because they've only just started bombing Syria). The knowledge that a network could carry out such a widespread and well-coordinated attack without being preempted, in a situation of maximum alert, will heavy on the minds of any French citizen regardless of whether victims were 118 or 119. Basically, the French security system has been revealed as completely ineffective. That is a huge problem.

chinathrow 11y ago
No, the number of innocent killed people is never irrelevant. Every single dead person is one dead person too much. Full stop. Edit: no need to further downvote as parent has changed his statement. Thanks parent poster.
- toyg 11y ago
  Of course. But by the same reasoning, there is no difference if there were 1 or 118 victims, which is my point. It's not about keeping score.
  - chinathrow 11y ago
    If you agree that the number is not irrelevant, it would be very kind of you to revoke that statement. It's an insult to the dead and to the families of the dead. Thank you. Edit: no need to further downvote as parent has changed his statement. Thanks parent poster.
- rangibaby 11y ago
  This kind of thinking led to the War on Terror, which led to a rise in extreme Islam which led to...
hyperliner 11y ago
Not all craziness is preventable by a security system.
- pliny 11y ago
  You're right, but attacks that require supplies (especially supplies that aren't dual use, like guns) and coordination between many parties, are the types of attacks that the modern security apparatus is optimized for preventing.
- toyg 11y ago
  That might be the case, but this particular strain of craziness was well-publicised and even experienced less than a year ago in the same place. One would expect some antibodies would have been developed by now, especially considering that French foreign policy is not getting any softer.
  - buserror 11y ago
    The problem is that the 'foreign' policy is irrelevant. The 'foreign' policy is made to appear the state is 'doing something' while MOST of the problem has been in the country for many, many years. Most of the problem is that the youngsters of immigrant stock have not been integrated, and have nothing else to do than turn to crime and/or religion, so are just RIPE for radicalism... And there's little the state can do about THAT. they can't send war planes to the banlieus -- it's a lot easier to play tough and send warplanes somewhere else, ignoring the local problem of the ghethos. And I don't have a proposal to make it all better either. It was an unsolvable problem already in france when I grew up there, and there's very little that can be done that hasn't been tried already.
    - toyg 11y ago
      Of course craziness can explode in many ways, but denying that foreign policy is a huge trigger is just disingenuous. How many suicide bombers have you seen in Canada or Sweden? And they have a huge migrant population, larger than France in percentage terms, with various degrees of (non-)integration. But they don't set other countries on fire nor they usually bomb anyone, so they don't get hit by paramilitary networks.
electromage 11y ago
It's relevant to the families and friends of those killed.
- blisterpeanuts 11y ago
  Yes, I agree. Immense tragedy and I fear the numbers will go up before this is over.
- JadeNB 11y ago
  Why? Is the death of a loved one any more, or less, tragic because it is one among a hundred?
serge2k 11y ago
You could probably phrase that first sentence a little better.
sosborn 11y ago
> Basically, the French security system has been revealed as completely ineffective. How can a country possibly prevent these things while still maintaining a free society?
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > How can a country possibly prevent these things while still maintaining a free society? You can't even prevent them when not being a free society. Its not like terrorism only occurs in free societies.
  - RogtamBar 11y ago
    This is bullshit and you know this. There is very little chance of anyone successfully getting up to terrorism if society is a) riddled with informers b) detaining people without charges is legal c) totalitarian ideology and political supremacy makes the establishment of parallel societies impossible. Border controls make importing terrorists next to impossible. The former eastern Bloc had no terrorist incidents. Pulling them off would be harder, the state would cover it up, etc. Just like it had practically no mob. It did have a great many terrorists, mostly in various training camps.
    - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
      > The former eastern Bloc had no terrorist incidents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_the_Sovi...
    - rdtsc 11y ago
      > The former eastern Bloc had no terrorist incidents. Yeah, the whole Eastern Block was one big terrorist incident All the terrorists in the world combined have nothing on Stalin's death count.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      Usually in such a society the state is the terrorist.
espadrine 11y ago
> Basically, the French security system has been revealed as completely ineffective. As an aside, strong suveillance laws were voted earlier this year. https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lexpress.fr%2Factualite%2Fpolitique%2Fle-senat-adopte-le-tres-conteste-projet-de-loi-sur-le-renseignement_1687836.html&edit-text=&act=url https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...
- toyg 11y ago
  Exactly. Fat lot of good it did to them. Clearly the whole approach is simply wrong.
- slantedview 11y ago
  If you see and hear everything, you will know nothing.
stsp 11y ago
> Basically, the French security system has been revealed as completely ineffective. That is what matters. The attacks are horrible and a security system which effectively prevents them would be just as horrible. This problem won't be fixed without a major shift in paradigm on either side. Perhaps not in our lifetime but oh how nice it would be...
Asbostos 11y ago
They already failed to prevent 600 common murders each year. You could call that completely ineffective or you could call it diminishing returns on investment in security. You can't prevent all of them without an unacceptable number of false positives or harsh restrictions on freedom. Anyone who's upset by this and doesn't have a personal connection to the victims is not being rational. They should be upset by all other killings - the vast majority which don't get into the international news, let along HN. Those are far more prevalent, and perhaps easier to prevent because they're done by amatures.

lnalx 11y ago

118 inside the theater and 40 in other locations in and around Paris

Keats 11y ago
itele says 118 total with around 80 in the bataclan
- lnalx 11y ago
  Watching iTele now too, numbers 40 or 80 aren't confirmed yet. EDIT: 40 confirmed.

hardcastle 11y ago

158 deaths in total, so terrible