6 ms·

It is impossible to prevent while only criminals/terrorists have the weapons. An armed citizenry is not so easily victimized.

by stray 11y ago

miguelrochefort 11y ago
A recent tweet by Newt Gingrich echoes precisely that: https://twitter.com/newtgingrich/status/665312487147896832 https://twitter.com/newtgingrich/status/665312487147896832 I understand that this is not the popular opinion around here, but I genuinely can't think of an alternative.
- sirrocco 11y ago
  I call bullshit on that. Tell me one theater/school/whatever attack in the States that has been foiled by armed citizens.
  - hyperliner 11y ago
    Here are a few: http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/12-times-mass-shootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/ http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/1...
  - brogrammer90 11y ago
    Concealed carry permit holders actually follow the law and don't solicit businesses that are "gun free zones."
  - stray 11y ago
    According to the FBI (https://leb.fbi.gov/2014/january/active-shooter-events-from-2000-to-2012 https://leb.fbi.gov/2014/january/active-shooter-events-from-...): [In] 33 percent (17) of the cases that ended before the police arrived, the potential victims at the scene stopped the shooter themselves. Most commonly they physically subdued the attacker (14 cases), but 3 cases involved people at the scene shooting the perpetrator to end the attack. So it appears that even the FBI says there were 3 over a span of 12 years that were foiled by armed citizens. And that fully one third of them were stopped by citizens without guns. I would assume that if everybody were armed then, that more than 33 percent would be foiled by armed citizens. That is of course, if you accept the Federal Bureau of Investigation to be a credible source
  - miguelrochefort 11y ago
    "Since 2009, 92 Percent of Mass Shootings Have Occurred in Gun-Free Zones" http://freedomoutpost.com/2015/10/since-2009-92-percent-of-mass-shootings-have-occurred-in-gun-free-zones/ http://freedomoutpost.com/2015/10/since-2009-92-percent-of-m...
    - hokkos 11y ago
      But what is the proportion of not gun free colleges ? (because this is where most shooting are)
- kohanz 11y ago
  Whether you agree with him or not, you have to admit that the timing of that politically-charged tweet was in incredibly poor taste.
  - stray 11y ago
    Fully disagree. It is precisely during tragic times like these that people need to be reminded that an unarmed citizenry is completely vulnerable to armed criminals/terrorists. Gun control has zero effect on people who don't care about the law. And many innocent people have just died as a result. Hundreds of families have just been forever changed because of it.
  - miguelrochefort 11y ago
    I can't think of a better opportunity to post such a tweet.
  - staunch 11y ago
    "Now is the time" = I agree with the argument. "Now is not the time" = I disagree with the argument.
brogrammer90 11y ago
Why are you limp wristed millennials downvoting this? If a mere 1% of the crowd were allowed to carry concealed, even with something wimpy like a Ruger SR22 or S&W M&P 22 Compact, the body count here would be less than 10.
- yongjik 11y ago
  From Wikipedia: > According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013, firearms (excluding BB and pellet guns) were used in 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) [2] and 11,208 deaths by homicide (3.5 per 100,000),[3] 21,175 by suicide with a firearm,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm,[4] and 281 deaths due to firearms-use with "undetermined intent"[5] for a total of 33,169 deaths related to firearms (excluding firearm deaths due to legal intervention). So, 11,713 homicides and accidents in the US, not counting suicide. This week alone, gun will likely kill more Americans than the attack on Paris today.
  - tvm 11y ago
    This can be somewhat misleading. eg.,: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-hom... Brazil, Italy etc. - significantly lower percentage of firearms between citizens (say compared to USA), yet there are percentually more homicides performed with firearm.
    - disabledalpha 11y ago
      One has to be careful there. Yes, according to that data, in Italy 67% of homicides are by firearm while 11.9% of people have a firearm. Since the numbers for the US are 60% and 89% one is tempted to conclude that in Italy there are more firearm related homicides. However, this is false. If one looks at the fourth column it is clear that in Italy there are 0.71 homicides by firearm for each 100k peoples while in the US there are 2.97, more than 4 times as many. Brasil on the other hand has indeed much more homicides per 100k people than the US, although having only an 8% of the population legally possessing a weapon. TL;DR: In Italy there are four times less homicides by firearm per 100k people than in the US.
asadlionpk 11y ago
Even if we don't count the side-effects of this. I don't think armed citizens stand a chance against highly trained militants with heavy weaponry.
- stray 11y ago
  Have any idea how many of us are even better trained ex-military? In the US, about 13.4% of men are veterans. And 1.4% of women are veterans. So if you're in a theater with a hundred men and a hundred women -- fifteen of those people are competent in the responsible use if firearms AND have proven themselves willing to put their lives on the line for their countrymen. I'd put money on an overweight, half-blind, ARMED, 60 year old US Marine up against 5 religious zealots with AK-47s any day of the week. Hell, even those Air Force guys probably know what they're doing :-)
notahacker 11y ago
When your adversaries are armed with suicide bombs and have no intention of living, armed citizens are very easily victimised. Iraqi civilians have plenty of firearms, and minimal restrictions on carrying them. What actually did reduce the magnitude of the damage caused in the Paris attacks was the kind of intrusive security checks on people entering the Stade de France that are usually rather less popular around here...

It is impossible to prevent while only criminals/terrorists have the weapons. An armed citizenry is not so easily victimized.

by stray 11y ago

It is impossible to prevent while only criminals/terrorists have the weapons. An armed citizenry is not so easily victimized.

miguelrochefort 11y ago

A recent tweet by Newt Gingrich echoes precisely that: https://twitter.com/newtgingrich/status/665312487147896832 https://twitter.com/newtgingrich/status/665312487147896832 I understand that this is not the popular opinion around here, but I genuinely can't think of an alternative.

sirrocco 11y ago
I call bullshit on that. Tell me one theater/school/whatever attack in the States that has been foiled by armed citizens.
- hyperliner 11y ago
  Here are a few: http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/12-times-mass-shootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/ http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/1...
- brogrammer90 11y ago
  Concealed carry permit holders actually follow the law and don't solicit businesses that are "gun free zones."
- stray 11y ago
  According to the FBI (https://leb.fbi.gov/2014/january/active-shooter-events-from-2000-to-2012 https://leb.fbi.gov/2014/january/active-shooter-events-from-...): [In] 33 percent (17) of the cases that ended before the police arrived, the potential victims at the scene stopped the shooter themselves. Most commonly they physically subdued the attacker (14 cases), but 3 cases involved people at the scene shooting the perpetrator to end the attack. So it appears that even the FBI says there were 3 over a span of 12 years that were foiled by armed citizens. And that fully one third of them were stopped by citizens without guns. I would assume that if everybody were armed then, that more than 33 percent would be foiled by armed citizens. That is of course, if you accept the Federal Bureau of Investigation to be a credible source
- miguelrochefort 11y ago
  "Since 2009, 92 Percent of Mass Shootings Have Occurred in Gun-Free Zones" http://freedomoutpost.com/2015/10/since-2009-92-percent-of-mass-shootings-have-occurred-in-gun-free-zones/ http://freedomoutpost.com/2015/10/since-2009-92-percent-of-m...
  - hokkos 11y ago
    But what is the proportion of not gun free colleges ? (because this is where most shooting are)
kohanz 11y ago
Whether you agree with him or not, you have to admit that the timing of that politically-charged tweet was in incredibly poor taste.
- stray 11y ago
  Fully disagree. It is precisely during tragic times like these that people need to be reminded that an unarmed citizenry is completely vulnerable to armed criminals/terrorists. Gun control has zero effect on people who don't care about the law. And many innocent people have just died as a result. Hundreds of families have just been forever changed because of it.
- miguelrochefort 11y ago
  I can't think of a better opportunity to post such a tweet.
- staunch 11y ago
  "Now is the time" = I agree with the argument. "Now is not the time" = I disagree with the argument.

brogrammer90 11y ago

Why are you limp wristed millennials downvoting this? If a mere 1% of the crowd were allowed to carry concealed, even with something wimpy like a Ruger SR22 or S&W M&P 22 Compact, the body count here would be less than 10.

yongjik 11y ago
From Wikipedia: > According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013, firearms (excluding BB and pellet guns) were used in 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) [2] and 11,208 deaths by homicide (3.5 per 100,000),[3] 21,175 by suicide with a firearm,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm,[4] and 281 deaths due to firearms-use with "undetermined intent"[5] for a total of 33,169 deaths related to firearms (excluding firearm deaths due to legal intervention). So, 11,713 homicides and accidents in the US, not counting suicide. This week alone, gun will likely kill more Americans than the attack on Paris today.
- tvm 11y ago
  This can be somewhat misleading. eg.,: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-hom... Brazil, Italy etc. - significantly lower percentage of firearms between citizens (say compared to USA), yet there are percentually more homicides performed with firearm.
  - disabledalpha 11y ago
    One has to be careful there. Yes, according to that data, in Italy 67% of homicides are by firearm while 11.9% of people have a firearm. Since the numbers for the US are 60% and 89% one is tempted to conclude that in Italy there are more firearm related homicides. However, this is false. If one looks at the fourth column it is clear that in Italy there are 0.71 homicides by firearm for each 100k peoples while in the US there are 2.97, more than 4 times as many. Brasil on the other hand has indeed much more homicides per 100k people than the US, although having only an 8% of the population legally possessing a weapon. TL;DR: In Italy there are four times less homicides by firearm per 100k people than in the US.

asadlionpk 11y ago

Even if we don't count the side-effects of this. I don't think armed citizens stand a chance against highly trained militants with heavy weaponry.

stray 11y ago
Have any idea how many of us are even better trained ex-military? In the US, about 13.4% of men are veterans. And 1.4% of women are veterans. So if you're in a theater with a hundred men and a hundred women -- fifteen of those people are competent in the responsible use if firearms AND have proven themselves willing to put their lives on the line for their countrymen. I'd put money on an overweight, half-blind, ARMED, 60 year old US Marine up against 5 religious zealots with AK-47s any day of the week. Hell, even those Air Force guys probably know what they're doing :-)

notahacker 11y ago

When your adversaries are armed with suicide bombs and have no intention of living, armed citizens are very easily victimised. Iraqi civilians have plenty of firearms, and minimal restrictions on carrying them. What actually did reduce the magnitude of the damage caused in the Paris attacks was the kind of intrusive security checks on people entering the Stade de France that are usually rather less popular around here...