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France jealously guards its secular republic. Separation of church and state is a top priority (well above the U.S. and U.K. -- for instance, head coverings ar

by stvswn 11y ago

France jealously guards its secular republic. Separation of church and state is a top priority (well above the U.S. and U.K. -- for instance, head coverings are not allowed in public schools). The French are notably resilient in the face of intimidation (see the protests and solidarity after the Charlie Hebdo shootings). There's a lot about the French for terrorists to hate, which is worthy of admiration in my opinion.

serge2k 11y ago
> well above the U.S. and U.K. -- for instance, head coverings are not allowed in public schools is that even really about separation of church and state? Somehow I doubt it. Also the US takes the, IMO, "better" position of saying that individuals practicing private religion doesn't break separation of church and state. Organized religion does. Of course the US also effectively forces their children to recite a pledge (which includes "under god"), which I find rather distateful.
- stvswn 11y ago
  I'm not endorsing it, but the French attitude (generally) is that religion is a private concern that doesn't belong in the public forum. They view public displays of religion by private individuals with suspicion and distaste, which is different culturally from the U.S. Like I clarified below, I don't admire that specifically -- I do admire that they treasure and protect their civic values in the face of intimidation.
  - serge2k 11y ago
    or maybe they don't like displays of the Muslim faith.
    - elros 11y ago
      You can't wear a cross around you neck in a public institution either.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> Separation of church and state is a top priority (well above the U.S. and U.K. -- for instance, head coverings are not allowed in public schools). That's not separation of church and state, that's suppression of unpopular religion by the secular state, which is no different than suppression of unpopular religion in favor of a popular religion by the state. (And its not just in schools, though that was one of the focal points in the debates, the ban applies in all public spaces in France.)
- stvswn 11y ago
  I wasn't endorsing, and I think you and I would probably agree about quite a bit. I was pointing out ways in which French values are at odds with the terrorists'. Still, I admire their resilience, solidarity, and the willingness to stand up for their culture and values. I think the West could use more of that.
- solidsnack9000 11y ago
  On the face of it, there isn't any language targeting a particular religion or its symbols. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_c... The French do have a fairly rigorous approach to separation of church and state. Where do they cross the line into something blatantly discriminatory?
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > On the face of it, On the face of it, sure; OTOH, the specific targeting of traditional attire of certain Muslims was overt among the promoters of both the ban you link to and the broader ban on face covering in public spaces.

by stvswn 11y ago

serge2k 11y ago

> well above the U.S. and U.K. -- for instance, head coverings are not allowed in public schools is that even really about separation of church and state? Somehow I doubt it. Also the US takes the, IMO, "better" position of saying that individuals practicing private religion doesn't break separation of church and state. Organized religion does. Of course the US also effectively forces their children to recite a pledge (which includes "under god"), which I find rather distateful.

stvswn 11y ago
I'm not endorsing it, but the French attitude (generally) is that religion is a private concern that doesn't belong in the public forum. They view public displays of religion by private individuals with suspicion and distaste, which is different culturally from the U.S. Like I clarified below, I don't admire that specifically -- I do admire that they treasure and protect their civic values in the face of intimidation.
- serge2k 11y ago
  or maybe they don't like displays of the Muslim faith.
  - elros 11y ago
    You can't wear a cross around you neck in a public institution either.

dragonwriter 11y ago

> Separation of church and state is a top priority (well above the U.S. and U.K. -- for instance, head coverings are not allowed in public schools). That's not separation of church and state, that's suppression of unpopular religion by the secular state, which is no different than suppression of unpopular religion in favor of a popular religion by the state. (And its not just in schools, though that was one of the focal points in the debates, the ban applies in all public spaces in France.)

stvswn 11y ago
I wasn't endorsing, and I think you and I would probably agree about quite a bit. I was pointing out ways in which French values are at odds with the terrorists'. Still, I admire their resilience, solidarity, and the willingness to stand up for their culture and values. I think the West could use more of that.
solidsnack9000 11y ago
On the face of it, there isn't any language targeting a particular religion or its symbols. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_c... The French do have a fairly rigorous approach to separation of church and state. Where do they cross the line into something blatantly discriminatory?
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > On the face of it, On the face of it, sure; OTOH, the specific targeting of traditional attire of certain Muslims was overt among the promoters of both the ban you link to and the broader ban on face covering in public spaces.