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I am French and have friends and family in Paris, fortunately they are all safe. I am however in shock and can't really process much except for shedding tears.

• bengalister 11y ago
  French too living in France, but sorry I am fed up of hearing that. Don't you think there's something wrong with Islam and its worshippers in the current days ? Not a single week without hearing about an attack made by islam integrists: Beiruth yesterday, Ankara few weeks ago. It is global, not a few crazy people, tens of thousands of them. Muslims in France have had hard time condeming the Charlie hebdo's attacks and many approved them. There's a strong tendency in the muslim communities these days to reject any Western values. If Islam was once peaceful it is not anymore.
  • jacquesm 11y ago
    I disagree, strongly. I disagree because specifically this is the reaction that these attacks are supposed to provoke leading to a further split of society and if possible an even more fertile ground for further radicalization. Essentially that's the other stroke of the piston. If you really want the engine to stop then please do not react in the way these assholes want you to. Islam has nothing to do with this whatsoever, no more than say a Christian shooter in some cinema in has anything to do with Christianity. Islam as a religion has a ton of issues that make this particular kind of thing very hard to get rid of and it is a sad coincidence that many youths that are easily misled are receptive to all sorts of bs but to generalize across a billion or so people because of what a few assholes did is simply wrong.
    • dan_dimerman 11y ago
      it's not a coincidence. I think the correlation between Islam and violence is too strong to ignore for tolerance and political correctness sake.
      • jacquesm 11y ago
        The correlation is simple: A bunch of fanatics has managed to hi-jack a substantial portion of their youths who are vulnerable because of their age and outlook on life nominally sharing the same faith with their handlers who they look up to, and doing their deeds for them (because they're too old, too cynical or too cowardly to do such deeds themselves). So the correlation is strong but a lack of tolerance will fuel the generation of more of these, not less.
      • azth 11y ago
        Correlation vs. causation fallacy.
      • gangcil_yc 11y ago
        If we accept all that people claim to be true, Kissinger, Bush and Blair et. al. cannot be any exception. Then what suggestions one gets from the correlation between "upholding democracy and human rights" and the butchery in brutally murdering tens of millions in the last several decades (from Algeria to Cambodia to the genocides in Iraq through sanctions and slaughtering)?
    • stvswn 11y ago
      You can simultaneously fight against right-wing politicians who would capitalize on terrorism and also acknowledge that these aren't "crazy people who happen to be Muslims," these are committed killers who are murdering in the name of a particular strain of revolutionary, extreme Islam. If a well-organized and philosophically consistent group of Christians were organizing mass shootings with motives gleaned from radical Christian theology, you would be completely justified in pointing to a problem within radical Christianity. For example: I'm a moderate Catholic myself. I condemn the Westboro Baptist Church and their strain of apocalyptic nonsense. If you want to criticize fundamental Christianity on the basis that it spawned those maniacs, go ahead. Just the same, please don't pretend that somehow these acts are completely divorced of Islam. We're not stupid, we can distinguish between moderates and terrorists. It's intellectually vapid to say over and over that somehow an ideology firmly based in one religion cannot be criticized on the basis of their professed beliefs and motivations.
      • jacquesm 11y ago
        Disenfranchised youths and teenagers in general are very impressionable. This makes them highly sought after as 'marks' for radicalization. Whether they are already believers or whether they re-discover their religion is besides the point, the whole thing has about as much to do with religion as the war on drugs has to do with curing addiction. It's just a means to an end, a handle to get a grip on these people so they will do what they're told to do. The fact that religion pre-selects for people who have a very hard time separating fact from fiction most likely also has nothing to do with it because even atheists commit terrorist acts. The puppeteers are the ones that matter, the 'terrorists' are for the most part tools in the hands of masters at playing them believing they are making the world a better place (and how wrong they are). I make no distinction between idiots of any plumage, be they muslim, Christians, atheists or something else, organized or acting alone. They're a plague on society and should be dealt with, preferably long before they can become a problem in such a way that becoming a problem never even enters their minds because they're too busy living and appreciating life.
        • stvswn 11y ago
          This is a naive viewpoint masquerading as cynicism. There exist sane true-believers. The puppet-masters are true-believers, as well. It might be more uncomfortable to accept this fact -- but it is a fundamental truth that people out there hold competing values, and they're willing to kill and die for them. The "opiate of the masses" explanation is an old idea and fails at explaining revolutionary jihadism (as Marx failed to explain the world in general).
    • tim333 11y ago
      >Islam has nothing to do with this There seems a bit of wishful thinking there. We don't know the details but it seems quite likely Islam does have something to do with this.
      • jacquesm 11y ago
        It's a fair bet that quite a few or even all of the attackers (but let's stick with probably some) share the Islamic religion. But that does not mean that Islam per se has anything to do with it, what it points to is that religion is a tool that can be used to subvert people into committing acts that they would otherwise likely not engage in, especially when they're young, impressionable, stupid or all of the above. So even if Islam is nominally involved and even if the fact that religious people have a fringe element (like all people!) that does not mean Islam is the cause of this. Just like Catholicism is not a religion centered around pederasty and just like atheists don't generally go around shooting people.
        • tim333 11y ago
          I guess it's the style of attack that makes you think Islam. On the other hand if 150 innocents get killed by drones you think USA and by tanks and artillery you might guess Russia or Israel. I'm not a fan of any of the above.
    • powertower 11y ago
      > Islam has nothing to do with this whatsoever I recognize your username and I know you are highly intelligent, but how can you ignore all the daily evidence, crime statistics, the shows of intolerance + hatred + violence that Muslims put out towards the natives, all the logic and reason, and all the correlations about the Muslim population in Europe?
      • jacquesm 11y ago
        Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few. The Muslims that I know are very much upset about all this and fear for their future, if anybody is upset at the acts of terrorism by their nominal brethren it is them because they are confronted on a daily basis with the fall-out from all this. The scary bit is that the backlash against them drives them to become defensive and that's the one thing that should not happen.
        • powertower 11y ago
          > Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few. There is much more to the story than fitting Muslims into the categories of: "non-terrorist" and "active-terrorist". The fact still remains that Muslim [and other immigrating] populations in Europe negatively impact every single metric of social-ills (rapes, murders, acid-burning attacks, honor-killings / enormous housing and welfare costs / emergence of no-go zones / overall intolerance towards you / and so on and on). This is the further split of society that you are talking about. It happens when you bring in incompatible groups into your home, and groups that do not reciprocate your good will, tolerance, and open mindedness. It makes no difference that terrorists are few when double-digits (20%-90%) of Muslims (depending on region and % of population they make up) think that death should be the penalty for apostasy, that suicide bombings are justified, and so on.
          • jacquesm 11y ago
            So, let's first establish that these are individuals and that while for some of the individuals targeted your claims hold true there are many others that did successfully integrate. For the rest I'll ignore those but they exist and their numbers are vast, much larger than the numbers of those that failed to integrate but since they're not 'part of the problem' I'll pretend we're not talking about them (though they should be talked about because they apparently hold the key to at least a part of the solution). You're forgetting a few not-so-juicy details. Most of these people that failed to integrate carry local passports and to the law they are just as French (or Dutch, or German or whatever) as the rest of the people living there. As a rule all these countries practice freedom of religion so whatever the effect the immigrating (grand)parents had on the statistics of decades past the problem is the effects today. And you can't attack anybody on grounds of religion without opening up the traditional make-up of the country as well so that's right out because it would make a great many people in various power structures extremely nervous. The failure then is to fail to fully integrate these people, part of the failure is theirs, part of the failure is ours. The fact that the younger generation (and definitely not all of them!) are unable to get work, unable to find meaning in life and unable to get ahead no matter how hard they try creates a level of frustration that I can only imagine, but which broke through partially in the riots in France a couple of years ago. As far as the 'double digits' are concerned, right now an ultra-rightwing party holds > 25% of the vote in NL, that doesn't make all the Dutch racists any more than 30% of the Muslims agreeing with some or all of the terrorist activities makes all of the Muslims supporters of terrorism. It's each and every person as an individual that matters. And if a person specifically supports these acts then you can go after them with whatever tools are available but until then there is no reason to act in a generalizing manner. That only makes the problem (potentially much) worse.
    • moonfern 11y ago
      Your reaction is emotional, Islam has nothing to do with this whatsoever is not valid for the hundred victims and the hundreds of people who loved those victims. And I think that Wahhabism/Salafism is responsible for this and an unknown amount of atrocities against in the first place other Muslims.
    • GnwbZHiU 11y ago
      Islam may not have anything to do with this. But certainly Muhammad does have something to do with this. If you read his biography, it's full of active violence. Muhammad is totally different from Jesus or Siddhartha Gautama.
• yodsanklai 11y ago
  Crazy people that happen to be muslim extremists.
  • jacquesm 11y ago
    Yes, but crazy people exist in all walks of life. Fortunately most of those walks of life do not co-incide with organizations trying to point those crazy people against their fellow men. It's unfortunate that in some circles this does happen and clearly there is a problem but - and for a die hard atheist this is a tough one - the Muslim religion per-se is not the problem here, if it were you'd know about it because there are a billion+ of them. Every religion and every fringe has extremists, whether they are animal rights activists, anti-abortion groups or religious groups is hardly relevant in the end they are crazy people first and criminals second. How they got to be that way is yet another problem and bears close study because that is where the real problem lies.
    • yodsanklai 11y ago
      I have no problem with muslims (or not more than with christians for instance). I'm just pointing that these terrorists are not simply crazy people. They are muslim extremists. They kill for a reason, they've been brainwashed by guys that have a very specific agenda.
• jacquesm 11y ago
  Thank you for keeping your head on straight in times like these, an upvote alone is too little to express my genuine admiration, you're in the middle and you still manage to see sharp.
• Fezzik 11y ago
  While I wish this were true, do you not think the primary impetus is (likely) religious? I would wager these people are not crazy in any clinical sense; they have been deluded by a religious upbringing and culturally supported religious fervor. It is disingenuous to say that religion is not a contributing factor, if not the primary factor. It is like Steven Weinberg summarized: With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. Recognizing this is important for assessing the situation and how to counter the problem – this is not a circumstance where more mental health services will make the tiniest difference. It requires intelligent debate about education, philosophy (including religion), and how to convey to people that any religious beliefs that cause the deaths of others are simply wrong. Religion is not per se horrible – obviously the super-majority of religious people are fully functional contributing members of society and should be protected just like everyone else - but it has been used throughout history to conduct a huge number of atrocities.
  • dragonwriter 11y ago
    > While I wish this were true, do you not think the primary impetus is (likely) religious? Not really; religious identity politics are often used by leaders (whose motivation seems to be more power-seeking than genuinely religious) to connect with foot-soldiers (whose real impetus seems often to be desperation to improve conditions for their family, or themselves, or to redress wrongs they feel have been done to their family or themselves, or to feel connected to a group and gain meaning.) And you see the same thing done in other places with racial identity politics, economic class identity politics, national identity politics, etc. (And, in many cases, many of these are at play in the same movement.)
    • Fezzik 11y ago
      I probably ascribe to much influence to religion alone on its adherents, especially in the middle-east. That said, it seems the sheer number of crazy wars people have fought in the name of religion - the 30 Years' War, The Crusades, the Sudanese War, etc... - would indicate that at least some number of the participants are involved purely because they think Heaven/Jannah/something else awaits and a god is being pleased. Desperation, poverty, redress of (centuries long) wrongs, and seeing no other option than to join the movement do make sense as motives though.
• mtinkerhess 11y ago
  Furthermore, the terrorists want to create division between Muslim and non-Muslim / west and middle east. They know what our knee-jerk reactions will be and are hoping we will follow through on them.
• powertower 11y ago
  > we CANNOT allow right-wing political extremism to use them to gather power. THIS IS NOT ABOUT MUSLIMS, IMMIGRANTS OR WHATNOT. THIS IS ABOUT CRAZY PEOPLE. People who oppose rampant immigration, incompatible cultures, and hostile groups, are "extremists"? You are living in a climate where Muslims flood out into the streets and chant death threats (and then kill people) because someone made a joke about Muhammad. Bending over to these people and blaming yourself is not the way forwards - unless you want more of this chaos. France has one of the largest Muslim populations in Europe, and 20% of this group are brazen enough to sympathize and justify with terrorism when polled. There is a correlation here.
• PedroBatista 11y ago
  Crazy people that identify as muslims, emotions are running high but lets not pause our common sense in fear of "offending" someone somewhere. Leaning to left-wing extremism, going to a public gathering tomorrow and posting an inspiring slogan on Facebook doesn't do any justice for the dozens killed either.
• GnwbZHiU 11y ago
  This is about people following CRAZY IDEOLOGY.