4 ms·

And here come the "Obviously this is going to happen, France is 10% muslim" posts. If you marginalize people, mistrust them, do not make an effort to integrate

And here come the "Obviously this is going to happen, France is 10% muslim" posts. If you marginalize people, mistrust them, do not make an effort to integrate them, and make them feel like the only place where they are welcome is segregated communities, don't be surprised when they radicalize. This has happened all throughout history, and will continue without changes. Conservatives scream that Liberals are too soft on immigration, and are too focused on "political correctness". They want them to wake up and recognize that scary "others" are around every corner and can't wait to harm us. Well, the irony is that it is those social policies and that ostracization that creates the conditions in which resentment grows. And here we are. Screaming more about "those muslims". Which only pushes moderate muslims further to feel like there is no tolerance for nuiance in the West. This will do gangbusters for ISIS recruitment. edit: Just so people understand, I'm not victim blaming anyone. I am traumatized as one of my favourite cities and areas that I've been to only weeks ago are in the grips of panic and terror at the hands of horrific monsters. I'm not saying "Well yeah, of course, that's what's going to happen. France had it coming". I'm responding to the people who are saying "Well, yeah, of course, that's what's going to happen. When you allow so many immigrants and muslims have free reign". I'm looking ahead at the next few weeks as people take this opportunity to just blame everything on Islam. And make the situation worse longer term.

nmc 11y ago
You are right, but acknowledging these posts does nothing to help I am afraid. I know this is not the best place to nitpick, but I believe you should capitalize the "m" in "Muslim" when used as a noun.
aikah 11y ago
> If you marginalize people, mistrust them, do not make an effort to integrate them, and make them feel like the only place where they are welcome is segregated communities, don't be surprised when they radicalize. This has happened all throughout history, and will continue without changes. @deanCommie Please, stop with the excuses , nobody marginalized anybody. The terrorists are not victims , the islamists are not victims. so don't give them excuses. The wide majority of muslims in France are integrated, they are bakers, plumbers , computer scientists , my baker is a muslim , so stop with that bull. There is no excuse none. 10% of the french people are muslims, that's a fact, out of that fact it increases the chances of people chosing an extreme vision of islam. There was attacks in Spain , UK and obviously USA, is it because muslims were marginalized ? so stop please, you are ignorant trying to apply your post modernist canvas on things when some people are still taken hostage as we speak, you should be ashamed of yourself. FYI : I'm black and come from a muslim family though i'm not muslim, those who fail are those who don't try hard enough, nobody said it will be easy. Everything is "free" in France, education , college, healthcare , you feel "marginalized" , well there is Europe and you can basically pick and choose the country you want to live in today. So no excuses, enough.
- CapitalistCartr 11y ago
  What does "backer" mean? Edit: Ahh, you changed it to baker. My mind was wandering all over but there.
  - aikah 11y ago
    sorry i meant baker, corrected.
- erispoe 11y ago
  These are not excuses, these are explanations. Because we need to understand how to defuse radicalization.
- rtpg 11y ago
  >The wide majority of muslims in France are integrated Sooooo many studies have been done where the same resume gets shown to recruiters, except one has a French name and the other has an Arabic name. The results were an overwhelming amount of french resumes were chosen over the Arabic one. Not to mention constant issues like police harassment The issue of integration of purely the fault of a country that pretends that race doesn't matter while simultaneously punishing minorities every step of the way
  - aikah 11y ago
    > Sooooo many studies have been done where the same resume gets shown to recruiters, except one has a French name and the other has an Arabic name. The results were an overwhelming amount of french resumes were chosen over the Arabic one. Not to mention constant issues like police harassment Sure, but it doesn't make my point false. Is there some discrimination going on ? absolutely we need to fight it. Is it widespread absolutely not, I've been victim of racism in France because of the color of my skin , and you know what ? we have a lot of charities , organizations , and anti discrimination laws to fight against it. So what does it have to do with people killing 50+ innocents ? nothing. And the racism I endured didn't make me want to join ISIS or some bullshit Islamist movement, because I knew that for every racist ahole there are 10 000 people that are not and don't care about the color of my skin. But people like the OP and their "oppressor/oppressed" mindset are just giving excuses to the crazies , but there is no excuse , there is no explanation other than the terrorists a f.ed up and part of a death cult.
barney54 11y ago
What are you responding to? Did someone on HN write that about Muslims?
- makomk 11y ago
  One of the first HN comments on this was "I bet attacks like these will increase in the years ahead, since France will become 10.9% Muslim by 2050."
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Yes. For instance: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10563123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10563123
toomuchtodo 11y ago
How many citizens show we permit to be slaughtered in the name of unwavering tolerance? EDIT: There is preventing integration as a host nation's people, and refusing to integrate as an immigrant. One can only do so much to make a person feel welcome in a country as their new home. You may bring your beliefs, but you'll follow the laws and human rights expectations of your host country. Otherwise, stay at home, war torn or not. Disclaimer: American who is unwilling to watch first world country progress move backwards due to political correctness.
- yourepowerless 11y ago
  Are you referring to the western powers which have killed millions of Muslims this last decade?
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    Western powers? Not so much. "Al-Qaida Kills Eight Times More Muslims Than Non-Muslims" http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/surprising-study-on-terrorism-al-qaida-kills-eight-times-more-muslims-than-non-muslims-a-660619.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/surprising-study-o... "ISIS’s Gruesome Muslim Death Toll: The group’s killing of Westerners gets attention. But ISIS has killed far more Muslims, and publicizing that fact would harm it more." http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/07/isis-s-gruesome-muslim-death-toll.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/07/isis-s-grue... "Well, if spilling Muslim blood is the deciding factor for us Muslims to decide who we should take vengeance against, then al-Ansi and others in al Qaeda should immediately go into hiding. Simply put, al Qaeda has been slaughtering Muslims for years. Islamic clerics, doctors, nurses, women, children, etc. -- you name any type of Muslim, and al Qaeda has butchered them. In fact, a report released in 2009 by the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point documented the people killed by al Qaeda between 2004 and 2008. It found that only 12% of the victims of al Qaeda were Westerners. That suggests that al Qaeda has killed seven times as many Muslims as non-Muslims. And these attacks were just the ones for which al Qaeda had publicly claimed responsibility." http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/15/opinion/obeidallah-al-qaeda-hypocrisy/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/15/opinion/obeidallah-al-qaeda-hy...
defen 11y ago
There is a lot wrong with this post, but really, now is not the time to victim blame or make political posts like this.
jacquesm 11y ago
It's sad to see two comments in this thread in that vein already. Being a Muslim or not has nothing to do with it.
- tomatioaz 11y ago
  A French news channel, BFMTV, reported that an attacker shouted Allahu akbar.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    I don't doubt that. But that still does not mean that being a Muslim has anything to do with it. In fact, even if it turns out that all of the attackers were Muslims then that still holds true. How that works I'll leave as an exercise for you to work out but let's just say that the basis of a solution to this whole problem is somewhere in there and that I strongly believe that it starts with a complete lack of generalizations and a focus on people as individuals rather than as groups with shared traits. As long as that step isn't taken we will - very unfortunately - probably see more of this.
    - tomatioaz 11y ago
      I don't feel sorry for individuals that take up arms against me. Every individual is responsible for his or her actions. This goes far beyond "shared traits". They organize against us with a dogmatic reverence for violence known as radical Islam, and your dogmatic tolerance for it allows it to metastasize.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        What in what I wrote makes you believe I tolerate radical Islam?
    - d4rkph1b3r 11y ago
      I see your point. Not that long ago a white supremacist shot up a black church in the name of America and Christianity but we aren't condemning everyone in those groups. However it would be fair to condemn the small society (ghetto if you will) that allowed this to happen. In the same way I can blame the anti-integration Muslims without blaming Islam itself.
tosseraccount 11y ago
A different take ... from 1899 ... "Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome." -Winston Churchill, from "The River War" source : http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/churchillislam.asp http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/churchillislam.asp
- oblio 11y ago
  I don't think Churchill is the best benchmark for such matters: "starvation of anyhow underfed Bengalis is less serious than that of sturdy Greeks" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943#Supplies_from_other_countries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943#Suppli... And definitely not a benchmark for the 21st century.
  - tosseraccount 11y ago
    Churchill was fighting the Nazis at the time and prioritized shipping to best defeat the enemy.
    - oblio 11y ago
      At the expense of millions of what he should have considered his own people. I'm stretching the analogy a little here, but I'm sure you can think of another Allied leader that did the same. And the other allied leader has (deservedly) an awful reputation. Definitely a reputation which is worse than Churchill's.
      - tosseraccount 11y ago
        Mao? Chang Kai Chek? De Gaulle?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
d4rkph1b3r 11y ago
Uh huh. Must be why America is constantly terrorized by mass killings committed by Hispanic immigrants or poverty stricken blacks. I'm sorry but you can't just say "this is the inevitable outcome of marginalization". There are plenty of marginalized groups that choose not to commit mass murder in the name of justice.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Those groups do not have well funded organizations attempting to recruit their easily influenced youths into their ranks to do deeds against their fellow men.
  - d4rkph1b3r 11y ago
    Fair argument.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
ju-st 11y ago
It is imho already absolutely ridiculous that everyone here is already acusing French muslims or refugees.
- arcticfox 11y ago
  There is an overwhelming likelihood that this is an attack by radical Islamists. From a purely rational probabilistic perspective, it's not ridiculous at all.
tomatioaz 11y ago
Many Muslim neighborhoods are aggressive and even violent to outsiders. They are often the ones making the conscious effort not to integrate.
leppr 11y ago
Like you need 10% of the population to be marginalized to carry out a couple of gun attacks. Smugling a dozen people and then arming them isn't exactly rocket science. Any exotic terror group could have done this even if 99% of the French were full-on patriotic right-wingers.
stvswn 11y ago
When you say "here come the..," which posts are you talking about? It seems like your point is that the French are to blame because they didn't properly integrate Muslim immigrants? This is shockingly bad taste. People are still dying, as we speak, and you decide to rail against a strawman and blame the victims because you are nervous about your political opponents making hay?
thedavinci2000 11y ago
You can say the same about every new immigration group that arrived to the usa. Usually they are treated lot like crap at the beggining. As they integrate that marginalization disappears. I don't remember them becoming terrorist. So no, I don't buy it you blaming the host country, in this case France.
toyg 11y ago
The problem is integration, sure, but it's also a mountain of bad foreign policy choices that enable radicalisations. "We" (US, UK, France, Italy, Germany etc etc) have completely destabilised an entire subcontinent in the last 25 years. "We" keep pretending that these places are far away, far removed from our shining civilisations, but they are not -- they are on our doorstep, they have been our neighbours for millennia. Rome was fighting wars in that region when ships were still powered by human rowers. Until "we" think that a few drones is all we need to solve what is now a humongous clusterfuck (mostly of our own making), "we" will suffer wave after wave of lunatics with a death wish. Unfortunately, none of the current crop of European and American leaders has the faintest clue about what to do about it, except applying short-term measures that look good on tabloids.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
adrianmpc 11y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYiCizcm9wA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYiCizcm9wA

nmc 11y ago

You are right, but acknowledging these posts does nothing to help I am afraid. I know this is not the best place to nitpick, but I believe you should capitalize the "m" in "Muslim" when used as a noun.

aikah 11y ago

> If you marginalize people, mistrust them, do not make an effort to integrate them, and make them feel like the only place where they are welcome is segregated communities, don't be surprised when they radicalize. This has happened all throughout history, and will continue without changes. @deanCommie Please, stop with the excuses , nobody marginalized anybody. The terrorists are not victims , the islamists are not victims. so don't give them excuses. The wide majority of muslims in France are integrated, they are bakers, plumbers , computer scientists , my baker is a muslim , so stop with that bull. There is no excuse none. 10% of the french people are muslims, that's a fact, out of that fact it increases the chances of people chosing an extreme vision of islam. There was attacks in Spain , UK and obviously USA, is it because muslims were marginalized ? so stop please, you are ignorant trying to apply your post modernist canvas on things when some people are still taken hostage as we speak, you should be ashamed of yourself. FYI : I'm black and come from a muslim family though i'm not muslim, those who fail are those who don't try hard enough, nobody said it will be easy. Everything is "free" in France, education , college, healthcare , you feel "marginalized" , well there is Europe and you can basically pick and choose the country you want to live in today. So no excuses, enough.

CapitalistCartr 11y ago
What does "backer" mean? Edit: Ahh, you changed it to baker. My mind was wandering all over but there.
- aikah 11y ago
  sorry i meant baker, corrected.
erispoe 11y ago
These are not excuses, these are explanations. Because we need to understand how to defuse radicalization.
rtpg 11y ago
>The wide majority of muslims in France are integrated Sooooo many studies have been done where the same resume gets shown to recruiters, except one has a French name and the other has an Arabic name. The results were an overwhelming amount of french resumes were chosen over the Arabic one. Not to mention constant issues like police harassment The issue of integration of purely the fault of a country that pretends that race doesn't matter while simultaneously punishing minorities every step of the way
- aikah 11y ago
  > Sooooo many studies have been done where the same resume gets shown to recruiters, except one has a French name and the other has an Arabic name. The results were an overwhelming amount of french resumes were chosen over the Arabic one. Not to mention constant issues like police harassment Sure, but it doesn't make my point false. Is there some discrimination going on ? absolutely we need to fight it. Is it widespread absolutely not, I've been victim of racism in France because of the color of my skin , and you know what ? we have a lot of charities , organizations , and anti discrimination laws to fight against it. So what does it have to do with people killing 50+ innocents ? nothing. And the racism I endured didn't make me want to join ISIS or some bullshit Islamist movement, because I knew that for every racist ahole there are 10 000 people that are not and don't care about the color of my skin. But people like the OP and their "oppressor/oppressed" mindset are just giving excuses to the crazies , but there is no excuse , there is no explanation other than the terrorists a f.ed up and part of a death cult.

barney54 11y ago

What are you responding to? Did someone on HN write that about Muslims?

makomk 11y ago
One of the first HN comments on this was "I bet attacks like these will increase in the years ahead, since France will become 10.9% Muslim by 2050."
jacquesm 11y ago
Yes. For instance: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10563123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10563123

toomuchtodo 11y ago

How many citizens show we permit to be slaughtered in the name of unwavering tolerance? EDIT: There is preventing integration as a host nation's people, and refusing to integrate as an immigrant. One can only do so much to make a person feel welcome in a country as their new home. You may bring your beliefs, but you'll follow the laws and human rights expectations of your host country. Otherwise, stay at home, war torn or not. Disclaimer: American who is unwilling to watch first world country progress move backwards due to political correctness.

yourepowerless 11y ago
Are you referring to the western powers which have killed millions of Muslims this last decade?
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Western powers? Not so much. "Al-Qaida Kills Eight Times More Muslims Than Non-Muslims" http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/surprising-study-on-terrorism-al-qaida-kills-eight-times-more-muslims-than-non-muslims-a-660619.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/surprising-study-o... "ISIS’s Gruesome Muslim Death Toll: The group’s killing of Westerners gets attention. But ISIS has killed far more Muslims, and publicizing that fact would harm it more." http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/07/isis-s-gruesome-muslim-death-toll.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/07/isis-s-grue... "Well, if spilling Muslim blood is the deciding factor for us Muslims to decide who we should take vengeance against, then al-Ansi and others in al Qaeda should immediately go into hiding. Simply put, al Qaeda has been slaughtering Muslims for years. Islamic clerics, doctors, nurses, women, children, etc. -- you name any type of Muslim, and al Qaeda has butchered them. In fact, a report released in 2009 by the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point documented the people killed by al Qaeda between 2004 and 2008. It found that only 12% of the victims of al Qaeda were Westerners. That suggests that al Qaeda has killed seven times as many Muslims as non-Muslims. And these attacks were just the ones for which al Qaeda had publicly claimed responsibility." http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/15/opinion/obeidallah-al-qaeda-hypocrisy/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/15/opinion/obeidallah-al-qaeda-hy...

defen 11y ago

There is a lot wrong with this post, but really, now is not the time to victim blame or make political posts like this.

jacquesm 11y ago

It's sad to see two comments in this thread in that vein already. Being a Muslim or not has nothing to do with it.

tomatioaz 11y ago
A French news channel, BFMTV, reported that an attacker shouted Allahu akbar.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  I don't doubt that. But that still does not mean that being a Muslim has anything to do with it. In fact, even if it turns out that all of the attackers were Muslims then that still holds true. How that works I'll leave as an exercise for you to work out but let's just say that the basis of a solution to this whole problem is somewhere in there and that I strongly believe that it starts with a complete lack of generalizations and a focus on people as individuals rather than as groups with shared traits. As long as that step isn't taken we will - very unfortunately - probably see more of this.
  - tomatioaz 11y ago
    I don't feel sorry for individuals that take up arms against me. Every individual is responsible for his or her actions. This goes far beyond "shared traits". They organize against us with a dogmatic reverence for violence known as radical Islam, and your dogmatic tolerance for it allows it to metastasize.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      What in what I wrote makes you believe I tolerate radical Islam?
  - d4rkph1b3r 11y ago
    I see your point. Not that long ago a white supremacist shot up a black church in the name of America and Christianity but we aren't condemning everyone in those groups. However it would be fair to condemn the small society (ghetto if you will) that allowed this to happen. In the same way I can blame the anti-integration Muslims without blaming Islam itself.

tosseraccount 11y ago

A different take ... from 1899 ... "Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome." -Winston Churchill, from "The River War" source : http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/churchillislam.asp http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/churchillislam.asp

oblio 11y ago
I don't think Churchill is the best benchmark for such matters: "starvation of anyhow underfed Bengalis is less serious than that of sturdy Greeks" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943#Supplies_from_other_countries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943#Suppli... And definitely not a benchmark for the 21st century.
- tosseraccount 11y ago
  Churchill was fighting the Nazis at the time and prioritized shipping to best defeat the enemy.
  - oblio 11y ago
    At the expense of millions of what he should have considered his own people. I'm stretching the analogy a little here, but I'm sure you can think of another Allied leader that did the same. And the other allied leader has (deservedly) an awful reputation. Definitely a reputation which is worse than Churchill's.
    - tosseraccount 11y ago
      Mao? Chang Kai Chek? De Gaulle?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

d4rkph1b3r 11y ago

Uh huh. Must be why America is constantly terrorized by mass killings committed by Hispanic immigrants or poverty stricken blacks. I'm sorry but you can't just say "this is the inevitable outcome of marginalization". There are plenty of marginalized groups that choose not to commit mass murder in the name of justice.

jacquesm 11y ago
Those groups do not have well funded organizations attempting to recruit their easily influenced youths into their ranks to do deeds against their fellow men.
- d4rkph1b3r 11y ago
  Fair argument.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

ju-st 11y ago

It is imho already absolutely ridiculous that everyone here is already acusing French muslims or refugees.

arcticfox 11y ago
There is an overwhelming likelihood that this is an attack by radical Islamists. From a purely rational probabilistic perspective, it's not ridiculous at all.

tomatioaz 11y ago

Many Muslim neighborhoods are aggressive and even violent to outsiders. They are often the ones making the conscious effort not to integrate.

leppr 11y ago

Like you need 10% of the population to be marginalized to carry out a couple of gun attacks. Smugling a dozen people and then arming them isn't exactly rocket science. Any exotic terror group could have done this even if 99% of the French were full-on patriotic right-wingers.

stvswn 11y ago

When you say "here come the..," which posts are you talking about? It seems like your point is that the French are to blame because they didn't properly integrate Muslim immigrants? This is shockingly bad taste. People are still dying, as we speak, and you decide to rail against a strawman and blame the victims because you are nervous about your political opponents making hay?

thedavinci2000 11y ago

You can say the same about every new immigration group that arrived to the usa. Usually they are treated lot like crap at the beggining. As they integrate that marginalization disappears. I don't remember them becoming terrorist. So no, I don't buy it you blaming the host country, in this case France.

toyg 11y ago

The problem is integration, sure, but it's also a mountain of bad foreign policy choices that enable radicalisations. "We" (US, UK, France, Italy, Germany etc etc) have completely destabilised an entire subcontinent in the last 25 years. "We" keep pretending that these places are far away, far removed from our shining civilisations, but they are not -- they are on our doorstep, they have been our neighbours for millennia. Rome was fighting wars in that region when ships were still powered by human rowers. Until "we" think that a few drones is all we need to solve what is now a humongous clusterfuck (mostly of our own making), "we" will suffer wave after wave of lunatics with a death wish. Unfortunately, none of the current crop of European and American leaders has the faintest clue about what to do about it, except applying short-term measures that look good on tabloids.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

adrianmpc 11y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYiCizcm9wA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYiCizcm9wA