5 ms·

How awesome, awesome comment. People are dying and the only thing you care about is "totally total mass surveillance law"....

benevol 11y ago
We need to ask the question what kind of life we want for those who do live.
- hyperbovine 11y ago
  In the coming days or weeks, sure. Now?
  - NewNole2001 11y ago
    Yes. Now.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      I think it could wait for a day or two, this is happening right now and it is entirely disrespectful to those involved to derail this into some argument contra the surveillance state.
      - vacri 11y ago
        I think you're in error here. Benevol is talking about we need to talk about what kind of life we want to live, and this is a good time to talk about it. You yourself have been providing a lot of context in this thread (exhausting my upvote muscles...) talking about the same thing - why this is happening, sources of unrest, how to deal with the root problem, how technology is actually contributing to the problem... a tonne of context (thank you). But talking about surveillance laws dovetails into the gestalt of the problem, methinks.
        jacquesm 11y ago
        The problem is that as soon as the surveillance issue is put on the table the rest of what is important gets snowed under with a re-hash of the same old very much worn out arguments. I'm fine with giving the surveillance issue a rest. It's patently obvious to me that it is not working at all and it is also patently obvious to me that in spite of it not working attacks like this will be used to justify whatever the 'morons in charge' can come up with next. So we can take that as read and then wonder how we - each of us personally - can do something to halt the advance of that and I'm sure that collectively we could achieve something. My way of helping out has traditionally been to employ as many people on the fringe as possible to help them where I could and to right wrongs where-ever I saw them. I draw my friends from all walks of life and try to be inclusive as much as I can. On a personal scale that's just about all I can do and even though it is nothing to be proud of I definitely think it made a measurable difference. The whole thing boils down to 'circle of concern/circle of influence' for me and a rehash of the surveillance discussion falls entirely outside of that 'circle of influence' even though it concerns me very much and I wished that politicians would wise up. It'll happen hopefully, one day.
        waterlesscloud 11y ago
        No, it's a terrible time to talk about it. Talk about it now and you're going to get emotion-driven reactions, and they aren't going to be what you want. There isn't any time that would be less effective for your goals than right now.
        vacri 11y ago
        Then no-one should be talking about anything to do with causes or wider issues. This page should then be nothing other than "this is bad, I hope everyone is safe". Instead we're seeing a lot of discussion and a lot of it is good - I think jacquesm in particular is doing a great job in providing context in a level-headed manner. The thing is, just because you start talking about it now doesn't mean you can't talk about it later. Or that you can't change your mind. Also, it's like 'teen abstinence' sex ed - you can tell people to refrain all you want, but they're still going to do it. People want to talk about this thing as it's happening; they will find a place to do it regardless.
  - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    Now, because the pressure for new government powers is very urgent, and there may well be action in days, not weeks. But we need to do so with sensitivity, too, now. Edit: I'll go with jacquem's reply to NewNole2001: It can wait a day or two. It can't wait weeks, though. (The Patriot Act was passed less than 7 weeks after 9/11.)
  - switch007 11y ago
    Yes, because absolutely, without doubt, governments are also thinking how to exploit this situation.
  - vacri 11y ago
    A mature response is to start discussion ASAP and bring in more information as it becomes known. Entering a state of faux paralysis out of some sort of sense of 'too soon' gets us nowhere. It's also not like terrorist attacks are new to Europe - this one is a bit bigger than normal, but it's not a 9/11-scale outlier.
- tomashertus 11y ago
  Asking questions is simple. Take the responsibility and come up with a solution is hard
  - eveningcoffee 11y ago
    Calm down.
venomsnake 11y ago
Care for the living or cry for the dead. Making sure that the living don't sign off too much of their freedom while under shock, duress and scare is indeed a legitimate help. And taking care of them. I cannot resurrect people, I am also not trained commando in France's gendermerie, so preventing the abuse of that tragedy and stopping the surveillance state is the best I can do as an European at the moment. It is our duty to keep our heads cool and minds clear. When the smoke has cleared - then we will grief.
zipwitch 11y ago
People are ALWAYS dying. Far more from preventable accidents, disease, and war than from terrorism. That does NOT make terrorism any less despicable. But those who use fear of atrocities to push their own oppressive agendas are little better than terrorists themselves. It's a sad truth that there's no question that many surveillance advocates will use an event like this to push their own agendas.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  I'm far from a 'surveillance advocate' and yet I think that it is pretty tasteless of those on the opposite side of that fence to do exactly the same thing.
- wslh 11y ago
  You are talking as if terrorism was a natural disaster, something you can compare statistically and impossible to confront. Terrorism makes you feel fear, even if it's irrational it impacts you and the society you live.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    Terrorism does not make me feel fear. It makes me sad. Sad that there are so many lives lost, sad that so many people are still incapable of thinking critically, sad that we're again one step further from an actual solution. it's mostly a sad affair. But fear, no.
    - wslh 11y ago
      Don't you think that the September 11 attacks produced fear? May be you are different but this is the normal feeling if you are seeing the Twin Towers collapsing while you take your children to preschool.
- throwaway5752 11y ago
  Fine. How about when somebody creates a thread proposing increased surveillance you combat it there? Or perhaps lay out a powerful argument against it if someone proposes increased surveillance in this thread? Right now there is an active crime with mass fatalities (and some of use know people in France in the Paris area) and really, it's inappropriate, a bit tasteless, and frankly counterproductive to bring it up gratuitously here. If you delete your comment, I'll delete mine.
OldSchoolPro 11y ago
Exactly, every time the government wants to pass a law, they can arrange the killing of a few dozen/hundred/thousand people.
- yourepowerless 11y ago
  I assume thoughtless people will just dismiss this as conspiracy theory, somehow oblivious to how far that goal post have moved recently. Governments kill way more people than terrorists ever will, but fear those the government tells you to fear...

benevol 11y ago

We need to ask the question what kind of life we want for those who do live.

hyperbovine 11y ago
In the coming days or weeks, sure. Now?
- NewNole2001 11y ago
  Yes. Now.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    I think it could wait for a day or two, this is happening right now and it is entirely disrespectful to those involved to derail this into some argument contra the surveillance state.
    - vacri 11y ago
      I think you're in error here. Benevol is talking about we need to talk about what kind of life we want to live, and this is a good time to talk about it. You yourself have been providing a lot of context in this thread (exhausting my upvote muscles...) talking about the same thing - why this is happening, sources of unrest, how to deal with the root problem, how technology is actually contributing to the problem... a tonne of context (thank you). But talking about surveillance laws dovetails into the gestalt of the problem, methinks.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        The problem is that as soon as the surveillance issue is put on the table the rest of what is important gets snowed under with a re-hash of the same old very much worn out arguments. I'm fine with giving the surveillance issue a rest. It's patently obvious to me that it is not working at all and it is also patently obvious to me that in spite of it not working attacks like this will be used to justify whatever the 'morons in charge' can come up with next. So we can take that as read and then wonder how we - each of us personally - can do something to halt the advance of that and I'm sure that collectively we could achieve something. My way of helping out has traditionally been to employ as many people on the fringe as possible to help them where I could and to right wrongs where-ever I saw them. I draw my friends from all walks of life and try to be inclusive as much as I can. On a personal scale that's just about all I can do and even though it is nothing to be proud of I definitely think it made a measurable difference. The whole thing boils down to 'circle of concern/circle of influence' for me and a rehash of the surveillance discussion falls entirely outside of that 'circle of influence' even though it concerns me very much and I wished that politicians would wise up. It'll happen hopefully, one day.
      - waterlesscloud 11y ago
        No, it's a terrible time to talk about it. Talk about it now and you're going to get emotion-driven reactions, and they aren't going to be what you want. There isn't any time that would be less effective for your goals than right now.
        vacri 11y ago
        Then no-one should be talking about anything to do with causes or wider issues. This page should then be nothing other than "this is bad, I hope everyone is safe". Instead we're seeing a lot of discussion and a lot of it is good - I think jacquesm in particular is doing a great job in providing context in a level-headed manner. The thing is, just because you start talking about it now doesn't mean you can't talk about it later. Or that you can't change your mind. Also, it's like 'teen abstinence' sex ed - you can tell people to refrain all you want, but they're still going to do it. People want to talk about this thing as it's happening; they will find a place to do it regardless.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  Now, because the pressure for new government powers is very urgent, and there may well be action in days, not weeks. But we need to do so with sensitivity, too, now. Edit: I'll go with jacquem's reply to NewNole2001: It can wait a day or two. It can't wait weeks, though. (The Patriot Act was passed less than 7 weeks after 9/11.)
- switch007 11y ago
  Yes, because absolutely, without doubt, governments are also thinking how to exploit this situation.
- vacri 11y ago
  A mature response is to start discussion ASAP and bring in more information as it becomes known. Entering a state of faux paralysis out of some sort of sense of 'too soon' gets us nowhere. It's also not like terrorist attacks are new to Europe - this one is a bit bigger than normal, but it's not a 9/11-scale outlier.
tomashertus 11y ago
Asking questions is simple. Take the responsibility and come up with a solution is hard
- eveningcoffee 11y ago
  Calm down.

venomsnake 11y ago

Care for the living or cry for the dead. Making sure that the living don't sign off too much of their freedom while under shock, duress and scare is indeed a legitimate help. And taking care of them. I cannot resurrect people, I am also not trained commando in France's gendermerie, so preventing the abuse of that tragedy and stopping the surveillance state is the best I can do as an European at the moment. It is our duty to keep our heads cool and minds clear. When the smoke has cleared - then we will grief.

zipwitch 11y ago

People are ALWAYS dying. Far more from preventable accidents, disease, and war than from terrorism. That does NOT make terrorism any less despicable. But those who use fear of atrocities to push their own oppressive agendas are little better than terrorists themselves. It's a sad truth that there's no question that many surveillance advocates will use an event like this to push their own agendas.

jacquesm 11y ago
I'm far from a 'surveillance advocate' and yet I think that it is pretty tasteless of those on the opposite side of that fence to do exactly the same thing.
wslh 11y ago
You are talking as if terrorism was a natural disaster, something you can compare statistically and impossible to confront. Terrorism makes you feel fear, even if it's irrational it impacts you and the society you live.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Terrorism does not make me feel fear. It makes me sad. Sad that there are so many lives lost, sad that so many people are still incapable of thinking critically, sad that we're again one step further from an actual solution. it's mostly a sad affair. But fear, no.
  - wslh 11y ago
    Don't you think that the September 11 attacks produced fear? May be you are different but this is the normal feeling if you are seeing the Twin Towers collapsing while you take your children to preschool.
throwaway5752 11y ago
Fine. How about when somebody creates a thread proposing increased surveillance you combat it there? Or perhaps lay out a powerful argument against it if someone proposes increased surveillance in this thread? Right now there is an active crime with mass fatalities (and some of use know people in France in the Paris area) and really, it's inappropriate, a bit tasteless, and frankly counterproductive to bring it up gratuitously here. If you delete your comment, I'll delete mine.

OldSchoolPro 11y ago

Exactly, every time the government wants to pass a law, they can arrange the killing of a few dozen/hundred/thousand people.

yourepowerless 11y ago
I assume thoughtless people will just dismiss this as conspiracy theory, somehow oblivious to how far that goal post have moved recently. Governments kill way more people than terrorists ever will, but fear those the government tells you to fear...