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How does that logic go? "I don't like tyranny so I'm going to join a group of murderers and rapists who are best known for their beheading videos". I know noth

by lemevi 11y ago

How does that logic go? "I don't like tyranny so I'm going to join a group of murderers and rapists who are best known for their beheading videos". I know nothing about the complex situation in Syria and Iraq but I always guessed that ISIL in Syria was more about Iraqi post-Sunni Awakening fallout after being locked out of governing by al-Maliki. Like if you look at a map of ISIL in Iraq you see the area they have is the area that was hostile to Iraqi Occupation in 2007 and the leader of ISIL is Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, an Iraqi who was an insurgent from Fallujah. They just took advantage of the problems in Syria and used that as a spring board into Iraq. The reason the fight against ISIL is going so slow in Iraq is the same reason it was such a tough fight in 2007. They're fighting the Iraqis who live there, it's not a Syrian invasion force. So why would someone from Damascus be joining ISIL over this problem?

dave2000 11y ago
"I know nothing about the complex situation in Syria" https://kanvaasi.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/bors151112-1500.png https://kanvaasi.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/bors151112-1500...
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
>"I don't like tyranny so I'm going to join a group of murderers and rapists who are best known for their beheading videos". Compared to those who are now known for bombing a hospital? You can easily paint any side as the total bad guy when you look at just how much abuse does happen. It doesn't much matter who is worst when everyone is so dirty that you can get enough dirt to validate any feelings one has. For example, consider the problem with dancing boys in Afghanistan and how the Taliban fought against it while the US protected the practice. Defining the 'bad guy' becomes a bit more difficult, no?
- pdabbadabba 11y ago
  Does ISIS have a lot of redeeming qualities that we're overlooking? If not, I'm not sure I can agree with the suggestion that its just a matter of framing whether ISIS is the villian or the United States. Say what you will about the U.S., but one would be hard pressed to say that it does no good around the world and only does things like bomb hospitals. But I'm not sure the same can be said of ISIS, unfortunately. That said, I agree with omarish in this respect: my own feeling of helplessness upon reading this article is probably akin in some ways to the feeling that drives people to take up arms with ISIS in Syria and Iraq. The important distinction, though, is that the source of the outrage that drives ISIS fighters to act is precisely the opposite of what one ought to be outraged about. (Or, at any rate, pretty much the opposite of what actually outrages me.)
  - trhway 11y ago
    >Does ISIS have a lot of redeeming qualities they do have. A lot. For Islamic true believers. The same way like Inquisition, with all the tortures and burning at stake, was for Christians. Blind devotion to religion may do that to you. >that we're overlooking? of course we don't see these redeeming qualities. Or more precisely - we do see these qualities, only we see them as condemning where is they see exactly the same qualities as redeeming.
    - lemevi 11y ago
      > "For Islamic true believers" I don't know any muslims personally, but I doubt that a majority of muslims, at least in the western world, believe ISIS has redeeming qualities. Is that true? Like what are those qualities that peaceful practitioners of Islam can redeem all those rapes and murders? Have you seen the Vice documentaries of kurdish fighting ISIS? ISIS are insane. They murder everyone. Even their own members: non-arabic speaking ISIS converts are used for suicide attacks. Tell me what redeems this behavior, wait I already know, nothing redeems this. Absolutely nothing in the mind of anyone who abhors violence and wishes for peace. You know, sane people. Even other terrorists say ISIS goes to far. Hamas has spoken out against ISIS!
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    >Does ISIS have a lot of redeeming qualities that we're overlooking? We likely won't know without talking to the people who make the choice to join them. For the Taliban case, I only learned of this recently because it was so largely ignored. In a few decades who knows what we may know about ISIS that we don't currently know. What I do know is so often pictures have been painted as black and white which are in reality many shades of grade and that due to this I am hesitant to believe this case really in black and white.

by lemevi 11y ago

dave2000 11y ago

"I know nothing about the complex situation in Syria" https://kanvaasi.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/bors151112-1500.png https://kanvaasi.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/bors151112-1500...

Lawtonfogle 11y ago

>"I don't like tyranny so I'm going to join a group of murderers and rapists who are best known for their beheading videos". Compared to those who are now known for bombing a hospital? You can easily paint any side as the total bad guy when you look at just how much abuse does happen. It doesn't much matter who is worst when everyone is so dirty that you can get enough dirt to validate any feelings one has. For example, consider the problem with dancing boys in Afghanistan and how the Taliban fought against it while the US protected the practice. Defining the 'bad guy' becomes a bit more difficult, no?

pdabbadabba 11y ago
Does ISIS have a lot of redeeming qualities that we're overlooking? If not, I'm not sure I can agree with the suggestion that its just a matter of framing whether ISIS is the villian or the United States. Say what you will about the U.S., but one would be hard pressed to say that it does no good around the world and only does things like bomb hospitals. But I'm not sure the same can be said of ISIS, unfortunately. That said, I agree with omarish in this respect: my own feeling of helplessness upon reading this article is probably akin in some ways to the feeling that drives people to take up arms with ISIS in Syria and Iraq. The important distinction, though, is that the source of the outrage that drives ISIS fighters to act is precisely the opposite of what one ought to be outraged about. (Or, at any rate, pretty much the opposite of what actually outrages me.)
- trhway 11y ago
  >Does ISIS have a lot of redeeming qualities they do have. A lot. For Islamic true believers. The same way like Inquisition, with all the tortures and burning at stake, was for Christians. Blind devotion to religion may do that to you. >that we're overlooking? of course we don't see these redeeming qualities. Or more precisely - we do see these qualities, only we see them as condemning where is they see exactly the same qualities as redeeming.
  - lemevi 11y ago
    > "For Islamic true believers" I don't know any muslims personally, but I doubt that a majority of muslims, at least in the western world, believe ISIS has redeeming qualities. Is that true? Like what are those qualities that peaceful practitioners of Islam can redeem all those rapes and murders? Have you seen the Vice documentaries of kurdish fighting ISIS? ISIS are insane. They murder everyone. Even their own members: non-arabic speaking ISIS converts are used for suicide attacks. Tell me what redeems this behavior, wait I already know, nothing redeems this. Absolutely nothing in the mind of anyone who abhors violence and wishes for peace. You know, sane people. Even other terrorists say ISIS goes to far. Hamas has spoken out against ISIS!
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  >Does ISIS have a lot of redeeming qualities that we're overlooking? We likely won't know without talking to the people who make the choice to join them. For the Taliban case, I only learned of this recently because it was so largely ignored. In a few decades who knows what we may know about ISIS that we don't currently know. What I do know is so often pictures have been painted as black and white which are in reality many shades of grade and that due to this I am hesitant to believe this case really in black and white.