3 ms·

I would like to clarify that at least personally I'm anti Chinese government and not anti China or the Chinese people. I love the country for many reasons and

by poutine 17y ago

I would like to clarify that at least personally I'm anti Chinese government and not anti China or the Chinese people. I love the country for many reasons and don't fundamentally wish it harm. When someone points out something bad about a country it's silly to say they can't say that because there's bad things about their own country. There's bad things about every country, it doesn't make them beyond criticism. And that sir is why you get my downvote.

PieSquared 17y ago
You make a good distinction, I agree (between government and country). Also, I think he doesn't deserve that downvote. He contributed his own thoughts, which were in no way rude or trollish, and seemed more or less educated. They also sparked a bit of interesting discussion. Anyway, my upvote balanced it out. ;)
- grandalf 17y ago
  Upvote appreciated. I find it sad how readily so many in the US jump on board criticizing foreign governments... it's as if we're all reading some sort of George W. Bush Patriotism manual.
grandalf 17y ago
I think the problem with your stance is that you don't give the Chinese people credit for their own sovereignty. Why is it not possible that Chinese leaders are not all-powerful despots who rule with an iron fist? They do not have absolute power, and regardless of whether they have official democracy, power is largely decentralized and influenced by populist needs (notably channeling some of the coastal wealth to the country's majority who are extremely poor)... You are, I think, falling into what I call the "Saddam Trap". Saddam was a bad guy, most likely, but we were all told to hate him so that we'd support a war that killed hundreds of thousands of innocents. I think a far more accurate and rational perspective is to realize that no ruler has fully centralized power and that by its nature decentralized power is essentially populist (if not somewhat democratic) in nature, even if there isn't an explicit constitution declaring it to be. The Tienanmen square uprising offers evidence of vibrant currents of dissent within China, and so change is inevitable over time. The question is why you think it must happen on your timetable or on the timetable of the Tienanmen protesters. * * * * Also, are you sure that the propaganda is not intended to make Americans view the Chinese people as broken saps held hostage by despots and worth sacrificing a few hundred thousand of should our leaders deem military action necessary? For all the concern about Saddam's despotism, the myriad innocent Iraqi dead from our oil war don't make US headlines.
- grandalf 17y ago
  Nobody argues against this, only mods it down?
jhancock 17y ago
I agree that its fine to point out problems you've observed from living in China. Certainly no country is beyond criticism. I have been reporting the other side of the coin in my posts simply to balance out the conversation. I have a long list of negative stories from 10 years in Shanghai. Some are absolutely shocking. But I have an even longer list of positive things to say. I suspect most making negative posts here have little to no direct knowledge of daily life in China.

by poutine 17y ago

PieSquared 17y ago

You make a good distinction, I agree (between government and country). Also, I think he doesn't deserve that downvote. He contributed his own thoughts, which were in no way rude or trollish, and seemed more or less educated. They also sparked a bit of interesting discussion. Anyway, my upvote balanced it out. ;)

grandalf 17y ago
Upvote appreciated. I find it sad how readily so many in the US jump on board criticizing foreign governments... it's as if we're all reading some sort of George W. Bush Patriotism manual.

grandalf 17y ago

I think the problem with your stance is that you don't give the Chinese people credit for their own sovereignty. Why is it not possible that Chinese leaders are not all-powerful despots who rule with an iron fist? They do not have absolute power, and regardless of whether they have official democracy, power is largely decentralized and influenced by populist needs (notably channeling some of the coastal wealth to the country's majority who are extremely poor)... You are, I think, falling into what I call the "Saddam Trap". Saddam was a bad guy, most likely, but we were all told to hate him so that we'd support a war that killed hundreds of thousands of innocents. I think a far more accurate and rational perspective is to realize that no ruler has fully centralized power and that by its nature decentralized power is essentially populist (if not somewhat democratic) in nature, even if there isn't an explicit constitution declaring it to be. The Tienanmen square uprising offers evidence of vibrant currents of dissent within China, and so change is inevitable over time. The question is why you think it must happen on your timetable or on the timetable of the Tienanmen protesters. * * * * Also, are you sure that the propaganda is not intended to make Americans view the Chinese people as broken saps held hostage by despots and worth sacrificing a few hundred thousand of should our leaders deem military action necessary? For all the concern about Saddam's despotism, the myriad innocent Iraqi dead from our oil war don't make US headlines.

grandalf 17y ago
Nobody argues against this, only mods it down?

jhancock 17y ago

I agree that its fine to point out problems you've observed from living in China. Certainly no country is beyond criticism. I have been reporting the other side of the coin in my posts simply to balance out the conversation. I have a long list of negative stories from 10 years in Shanghai. Some are absolutely shocking. But I have an even longer list of positive things to say. I suspect most making negative posts here have little to no direct knowledge of daily life in China.