4 ms·

This in many ways is quite desirable. China has so much excess labour that automation would cause severe problems. I once worked with a North American automate

by poutine 17y ago

This in many ways is quite desirable. China has so much excess labour that automation would cause severe problems. I once worked with a North American automated parking meter company that was ambitious at entering the untapped Chinese market for parking meters. This was doomed since parking is almost always done by a parking attendant, even on the street. Parking is also often controlled by the owner of the block. The attendant is usually someones uncle or whatever that needs a subsistence job. Another example are elevator attendants who sit on stools (often in private apartment buildings) and press the button for you. They often come with the building and are relatives of the manager or property developer. Absurd, but there you go. Chinese work gangs always take at least 3 times more people to do the same job that you'd do in the west. Most of the peoples jobs in such a gang is to sit around watch and offer advice as far as I could tell.

heresy 17y ago
Coincidentally, this is though to be one of the reasons why the Industrial Revolution occurred in the West. Because of the excess of cheap, expendable labour in China and India, there was never really any push for mechanization and automation and associated development of technology and methods related to mechanized production. Of course, the ascendance of the science in the West also contributed substantially.
drinian 17y ago
It might be desirable in the short-term, but as an expanding middle class and the one-child policy begin to shrink the population (and that is a very good thing, the world can't support a billion Chinese forever), then China's going to have to learn how to solve its problems with methods that don't involve throwing people at them. Not to mention that the West is probably going to end up paying for this, when the currency floats and suddenly all those factories in China are making $600 iPods instead of $300 ones. Also, let's take your parking example. Putting aside the Chinese disregard for all road signs and instructions, let's imagine that they install coin-op parking meters. (Yes, I know, with the coin shortage in China this isn't realistic, etc. etc.). Your uncle now has the much easier job of cleaning out the meters, rather than running around all day. And maybe someone gets a skilled-labor job as a parking meter repairman?
- BrentRitterbeck 17y ago
  Oh no! A useless iPod will now cost twice as much because Apple can no longer exploit an entire nation! I think that's a step in the right direction.
- billswift 17y ago
  >Your uncle now has the much easier job of cleaning out the meters, rather than running around all day. And maybe someone gets a skilled-labor job as a parking meter repairman? But there are fewer jobs available in this situation in aggregate. This is a problem with several criticisms of automation that I have seen in liberal and libertarian circles - they claim that automation does not decrease the number of workers since workers are needed to deal with the automation. Apparently they are totally innumerate, since while new jobs are created servicing the automation, the total number of jobs is significantly reduced.
  - drinian 17y ago
    True. I suppose that I would consider it a good thing, taking as a given that 1) a smaller global population is important in the long run, and 2) eventually we will find a way to allow most people to live without having to work 40 hours a week.
    - billswift 17y ago
      The benefit is that the people freed up can do other things, can contribute to the economy in other ways.
jhancock 17y ago
Good anecdotes. It is funny to think of a parking meter company trying to break into China. The last one, about work gangs sitting around doing nothing reminds me of just about every road construction crew I've ever seen in the U.S. One thing that greatly impresses me is road construction work in Shanghai. I've seen them rebuild a street, completely rip it up, install new sewage and fiber optics at lightning speed. This entails coordination of at least 3 different departments of the municipal government. In contrast, there is a construction project on I-95 through the middle of Jacksonville, Florida that has been ongoing for over 20 years!!

by poutine 17y ago

heresy 17y ago

Coincidentally, this is though to be one of the reasons why the Industrial Revolution occurred in the West. Because of the excess of cheap, expendable labour in China and India, there was never really any push for mechanization and automation and associated development of technology and methods related to mechanized production. Of course, the ascendance of the science in the West also contributed substantially.

drinian 17y ago

It might be desirable in the short-term, but as an expanding middle class and the one-child policy begin to shrink the population (and that is a very good thing, the world can't support a billion Chinese forever), then China's going to have to learn how to solve its problems with methods that don't involve throwing people at them. Not to mention that the West is probably going to end up paying for this, when the currency floats and suddenly all those factories in China are making $600 iPods instead of $300 ones. Also, let's take your parking example. Putting aside the Chinese disregard for all road signs and instructions, let's imagine that they install coin-op parking meters. (Yes, I know, with the coin shortage in China this isn't realistic, etc. etc.). Your uncle now has the much easier job of cleaning out the meters, rather than running around all day. And maybe someone gets a skilled-labor job as a parking meter repairman?

BrentRitterbeck 17y ago
Oh no! A useless iPod will now cost twice as much because Apple can no longer exploit an entire nation! I think that's a step in the right direction.
billswift 17y ago
>Your uncle now has the much easier job of cleaning out the meters, rather than running around all day. And maybe someone gets a skilled-labor job as a parking meter repairman? But there are fewer jobs available in this situation in aggregate. This is a problem with several criticisms of automation that I have seen in liberal and libertarian circles - they claim that automation does not decrease the number of workers since workers are needed to deal with the automation. Apparently they are totally innumerate, since while new jobs are created servicing the automation, the total number of jobs is significantly reduced.
- drinian 17y ago
  True. I suppose that I would consider it a good thing, taking as a given that 1) a smaller global population is important in the long run, and 2) eventually we will find a way to allow most people to live without having to work 40 hours a week.
  - billswift 17y ago
    The benefit is that the people freed up can do other things, can contribute to the economy in other ways.

jhancock 17y ago

Good anecdotes. It is funny to think of a parking meter company trying to break into China. The last one, about work gangs sitting around doing nothing reminds me of just about every road construction crew I've ever seen in the U.S. One thing that greatly impresses me is road construction work in Shanghai. I've seen them rebuild a street, completely rip it up, install new sewage and fiber optics at lightning speed. This entails coordination of at least 3 different departments of the municipal government. In contrast, there is a construction project on I-95 through the middle of Jacksonville, Florida that has been ongoing for over 20 years!!