8 ms·

Do women face a reputational bias when they co-author?

34 points by luu 11y ago

bitmadness 11y ago
I'm a (male) PhD student at Caltech, and didn't really believe gender bias was prevalent in academia till I spoke with female friends and learned about the kind of problems they faced. Believe me people, the problem is real.
- michaelbuddy 11y ago
  sure we'll just go ahead and believe you, being that you were so specific and straight forward with the proof. I mean you weren't vague at all with your friends alleged experiences.
- circlecrimson 11y ago
  Are you kidding me, if I was female colleges would fall over backwards if I was inclined to take up STEM subjects.
  - throwaway2048 11y ago
    maybe the fact you arn't should tell you something about your perspective on the issue.
    - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
      That they have a perspective that women in college do not have and cannot understand (assuming that a man couldn't understanding a woman's perspective)? There seems to be an underlying conclusion that men can't understand what women face and are blind to their privilege, but that women can understand the problems men face and are not blind to their privilege.
- zzleeper 11y ago
  In what field are you? From my experience in a business school, there is a lot of pressure now to have more woman and minorities as faculty. For instance, this is a task I recently got asked to do: -------------------------------- Hi , * said that you can help me collect some data for the finance hiring committee. Here is what I need. Attached is an excel spreadsheet with a list of business schools. Please go to each business school's website, and look up the finance department/area/group, and count the # of assistant professors in that group. In addition, please note the name of any assistant professor who is female or African-American, and the year of PhD if available. I hope you can complete this task by . Please let me know if you have any questions. Best regards, * -------------------------------- Interestingly (in a sad way), I couldn't find any African American assistant professor professor in the list of ~100 schools I got for that field (although I did find "African Africans" and "African Europeans" or whatever you call being black and not American).
  - cubancigar11 11y ago
    Africans who are not from America generally realize that their society has a lot of problems, which really isn't there in America or the 'developed' countries. So they try to learn what they can to improve. African Americans have internalized their class status so much, copying 'white people' has become equivalent to not being black.
  - venomsnake 11y ago
    > Interestingly (in a sad way), I couldn't find any African American assistant professor professor in the list of ~100 schools I got for that field (although I did find "African Africans" and "African Europeans" or whatever you call being black and not American). That leads to a question not often discussed. I have seen in other places too that black people that are from outside US fare better in US than African-Americans. Is there a point in which the years lived under systemic racism have side effects of learned helplessness that amplify and perpetuate the initial problem?
    - danieltillett 11y ago
      I think it is more likely to be the result of approaching things with an outsiders perspective. This gives you the ability to avoid problems insiders assume are unavoidable.
- omginternets 11y ago
  >Believe me people, the problem is real. It would be nice if you provided concrete examples, because I've had very much the opposite experience as you. From my perspective the problems are grossly exaggerated.
  - michaelbuddy 11y ago
    >Believe me the problem is real I guess we should all go ahead and believe him. I mean he did write a comment on the internet which consisted of some form of empty hearsay. That's all the proof any of us should need.
    - dudul 11y ago
      Last time I checked they didn't just let anybody write comments on the Internet.
  - richmarr 11y ago
    > It would be nice if you provided concrete examples, because I've had very much the opposite experience as you He said, while providing no concrete examples :)
    - omginternets 11y ago
      The burden of proof is on the other guy... it's hard to prove a negative. (but the joke is well-taken).
      - jordigh 11y ago
        It's not a negative. You have to demonstrate that there are as many women as men, you have to demonstrate that their grants are comparable to men's, and you have to demonstrate that most women speak highly of the selection process and how fair they found it. Please catalogue your evidence with citations whenever possible, and make sure you use reputable sources. Please also disclose your precise statistical procedure and experimental setup so that we may assess the validity of your findings. The questionnaires that you have given to women to assess their satisfaction are also of interest, as changes in wording can elicit different responses. I hope your experiment procedure has controlled for that.
- mafribe 11y ago
  In what metholodically sound way are you taking into account the financial (and other) incentives (if any) at play that may have played a role in narrating tales of distress?
  - richmarr 11y ago
    So, if I understand correctly, you're suggesting bitmadness should have listened to his friends telling him their problems, then designed and executed a rigorous study into whether they were lying for profit (and/or other motives). If so, that would be an extremely unusual thing for a human being to do, and I would wonder what would motivate someone to ask that kind of question.
    - mafribe 11y ago
      I'm not sure you understand me correctly. My aim was to inspire thinking. I agree that a methodologically sound experiment in the social sciences would be an unusual thing to do. But should we let the perfect be the enemy of the good? Or, to put it differently, if you are in the market for a second-hand automobile, would you trust the used-car saleswoman's word, or wonder if she has ulterior motives?
      - richmarr 11y ago
        > I agree that a methodologically sound experiment in the social sciences would be an unusual thing to do Would you care to elaborate, or are you just being flippant? > if you are in the market for a second-hand automobile, would you trust the used-car saleswoman's word, or wonder if she has ulterior motives? A used car salesperson's motives are crystal clear, which is why their opinion is justifiably taken with a pinch of salt. You seem to be suggesting by comparison that women have an equally uncomplicated incentive to lie. Don't misunderstand, I think people do lie, especially to themselves, but I also think the evidence shows that discrimination is part of human nature. Considering that this kind of experience lines up with both anecdotal evidence and with studies of unconscious bias in related areas [0][1][2][3][4] my default position is to assume that a problem is reasonably likely, but that further data would be useful. [0] Female students seen as less competent than identical male students with identical application materials, offered lower starting salaries (Moss-Racusin et al, 2012) [1] People in gender-incongruent roles penalised more heavily for mistakes (Brescoll, Dawson, & Uhlmann, 2010). [2] Voluble women perceived as less competent and less suitable leaders, inverse true for men (Brescoll, 2011). [3] Women who succeed in male-dominated fields percieved as not likeable (Heilman et al, 2004). [4] Students question the competence of female teachers who evaluate them negatively, less so than male teachers (Sinclair & Kunda 2000). ...and yes, repeatability is an issue. That's a systematic problem.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- da1 11y ago
  > Believe me people, the problem is real. Just like that? Without any examples or data? Do you really expect people to just listen and believe?! Edit: typos.
  - martiuk 11y ago
    It's the same tactics the social protestors at universities are using.
nonbel 11y ago
Lots of assuming going on here: >"The majority of schools require faculty to apply for tenure after 7 years. I consider one year before and after the 7th year to account for people who go up for tenure early or late because of a leave of absence, for example. I put universities into bins of 3 based on their ranking and assume that an individual is denied tenure if that person moves to a lower-ranked university group after 6-8 years. For example, a person who moves from Harvard to MIT after 6 years is not assumed to have been denied tenure since he moves within the same bin of schools. Someone who moves from Harvard to UCLA after 6 years is assumed to have been denied tenure since he moves to a lower group of schools. As another example, a person who moves 5 or fewer years after his initial appointment is not assumed to have been denied tenure since he moved before the tenure window (years 6 through 8 at an institution) starts." Arbitrary binning of universities, using a change in employer as a proxy for getting tenure, using number of papers published as a measure of productivity, fitting lines to a relationship that does not appear linear (and in fact cannot be linear since fraction getting tenure must be in the range 0-1). This issue may exist, but I don't think this analysis is capable of producing anything convincing.
- vilda 11y ago
  These types of arguments should be made by peer reviewers. Addressing these makes the paper (and research) stronger. Unfortunately, there is a lot of internal corruption in academia, which makes this feedback ineffective. If you apply for a grant, you already have to outline results of our research. Heather Sarsons, the author, is a doctoral fellow in the "Inequality and Social Policy program". She is paid to find inequality. If she won't find any, she would be unsuccessful. The same holds for colleagues--who actually do peer review. They are on the same ship. It's not a critique of this work, but the overall climate in academia. About 80% of papers in health science was found to be unreproducible. Guess why.
  - omginternets 11y ago
    >It's not a critique of this work, but the overall climate in academia. I think it's both. Contentious though this may be, I think that the reproductibility problems in academia invite us to consider the idea that we may be hiring political activists to do research.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
cokernel 11y ago
I notice that Sarsons's paper says on the very first page: "NOTE: Very preliminary – please do not cite without permission. Comments welcome." I wonder if Cowen sought permission or just ignored that sentence? I am aware that linking to something from a blog isn't exactly the same as citing it (presumably Sarsons is trying to discourage citations in other papers), but Cowen could have mentioned, but didn't mention, the preliminary nature of the paper when quoting the abstract.
lsc 11y ago
Now, I don't know, but my impression is that the appearance of confidence (by which I mean the things associated with confidence, like being tall, speaking in a loud voice, being a guy, having a higher level of social competence, etc...) have a lot to do with how much credit you get for doing a thing when it is obvious that credit is being shared. I mean, that's just my impression, not a study or anything... but it is something I observe, and it's weird because my own bias is to assume that the less confident or less socially competent person did most of the work.

34 points by luu 11y ago

I'm a (male) PhD student at Caltech, and didn't really believe gender bias was prevalent in academia till I spoke with female friends and learned about the kind of problems they faced. Believe me people, the problem is real.

michaelbuddy 11y ago
sure we'll just go ahead and believe you, being that you were so specific and straight forward with the proof. I mean you weren't vague at all with your friends alleged experiences.
circlecrimson 11y ago
Are you kidding me, if I was female colleges would fall over backwards if I was inclined to take up STEM subjects.
- throwaway2048 11y ago
  maybe the fact you arn't should tell you something about your perspective on the issue.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    That they have a perspective that women in college do not have and cannot understand (assuming that a man couldn't understanding a woman's perspective)? There seems to be an underlying conclusion that men can't understand what women face and are blind to their privilege, but that women can understand the problems men face and are not blind to their privilege.
zzleeper 11y ago
In what field are you? From my experience in a business school, there is a lot of pressure now to have more woman and minorities as faculty. For instance, this is a task I recently got asked to do: -------------------------------- Hi , * said that you can help me collect some data for the finance hiring committee. Here is what I need. Attached is an excel spreadsheet with a list of business schools. Please go to each business school's website, and look up the finance department/area/group, and count the # of assistant professors in that group. In addition, please note the name of any assistant professor who is female or African-American, and the year of PhD if available. I hope you can complete this task by . Please let me know if you have any questions. Best regards, * -------------------------------- Interestingly (in a sad way), I couldn't find any African American assistant professor professor in the list of ~100 schools I got for that field (although I did find "African Africans" and "African Europeans" or whatever you call being black and not American).
- cubancigar11 11y ago
  Africans who are not from America generally realize that their society has a lot of problems, which really isn't there in America or the 'developed' countries. So they try to learn what they can to improve. African Americans have internalized their class status so much, copying 'white people' has become equivalent to not being black.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  > Interestingly (in a sad way), I couldn't find any African American assistant professor professor in the list of ~100 schools I got for that field (although I did find "African Africans" and "African Europeans" or whatever you call being black and not American). That leads to a question not often discussed. I have seen in other places too that black people that are from outside US fare better in US than African-Americans. Is there a point in which the years lived under systemic racism have side effects of learned helplessness that amplify and perpetuate the initial problem?
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    I think it is more likely to be the result of approaching things with an outsiders perspective. This gives you the ability to avoid problems insiders assume are unavoidable.
omginternets 11y ago
>Believe me people, the problem is real. It would be nice if you provided concrete examples, because I've had very much the opposite experience as you. From my perspective the problems are grossly exaggerated.
- michaelbuddy 11y ago
  >Believe me the problem is real I guess we should all go ahead and believe him. I mean he did write a comment on the internet which consisted of some form of empty hearsay. That's all the proof any of us should need.
  - dudul 11y ago
    Last time I checked they didn't just let anybody write comments on the Internet.
- richmarr 11y ago
  > It would be nice if you provided concrete examples, because I've had very much the opposite experience as you He said, while providing no concrete examples :)
  - omginternets 11y ago
    The burden of proof is on the other guy... it's hard to prove a negative. (but the joke is well-taken).
    - jordigh 11y ago
      It's not a negative. You have to demonstrate that there are as many women as men, you have to demonstrate that their grants are comparable to men's, and you have to demonstrate that most women speak highly of the selection process and how fair they found it. Please catalogue your evidence with citations whenever possible, and make sure you use reputable sources. Please also disclose your precise statistical procedure and experimental setup so that we may assess the validity of your findings. The questionnaires that you have given to women to assess their satisfaction are also of interest, as changes in wording can elicit different responses. I hope your experiment procedure has controlled for that.
mafribe 11y ago
In what metholodically sound way are you taking into account the financial (and other) incentives (if any) at play that may have played a role in narrating tales of distress?
- richmarr 11y ago
  So, if I understand correctly, you're suggesting bitmadness should have listened to his friends telling him their problems, then designed and executed a rigorous study into whether they were lying for profit (and/or other motives). If so, that would be an extremely unusual thing for a human being to do, and I would wonder what would motivate someone to ask that kind of question.
  - mafribe 11y ago
    I'm not sure you understand me correctly. My aim was to inspire thinking. I agree that a methodologically sound experiment in the social sciences would be an unusual thing to do. But should we let the perfect be the enemy of the good? Or, to put it differently, if you are in the market for a second-hand automobile, would you trust the used-car saleswoman's word, or wonder if she has ulterior motives?
    - richmarr 11y ago
      > I agree that a methodologically sound experiment in the social sciences would be an unusual thing to do Would you care to elaborate, or are you just being flippant? > if you are in the market for a second-hand automobile, would you trust the used-car saleswoman's word, or wonder if she has ulterior motives? A used car salesperson's motives are crystal clear, which is why their opinion is justifiably taken with a pinch of salt. You seem to be suggesting by comparison that women have an equally uncomplicated incentive to lie. Don't misunderstand, I think people do lie, especially to themselves, but I also think the evidence shows that discrimination is part of human nature. Considering that this kind of experience lines up with both anecdotal evidence and with studies of unconscious bias in related areas [0][1][2][3][4] my default position is to assume that a problem is reasonably likely, but that further data would be useful. [0] Female students seen as less competent than identical male students with identical application materials, offered lower starting salaries (Moss-Racusin et al, 2012) [1] People in gender-incongruent roles penalised more heavily for mistakes (Brescoll, Dawson, & Uhlmann, 2010). [2] Voluble women perceived as less competent and less suitable leaders, inverse true for men (Brescoll, 2011). [3] Women who succeed in male-dominated fields percieved as not likeable (Heilman et al, 2004). [4] Students question the competence of female teachers who evaluate them negatively, less so than male teachers (Sinclair & Kunda 2000). ...and yes, repeatability is an issue. That's a systematic problem.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
da1 11y ago
> Believe me people, the problem is real. Just like that? Without any examples or data? Do you really expect people to just listen and believe?! Edit: typos.
- martiuk 11y ago
  It's the same tactics the social protestors at universities are using.

nonbel 11y ago

Lots of assuming going on here: >"The majority of schools require faculty to apply for tenure after 7 years. I consider one year before and after the 7th year to account for people who go up for tenure early or late because of a leave of absence, for example. I put universities into bins of 3 based on their ranking and assume that an individual is denied tenure if that person moves to a lower-ranked university group after 6-8 years. For example, a person who moves from Harvard to MIT after 6 years is not assumed to have been denied tenure since he moves within the same bin of schools. Someone who moves from Harvard to UCLA after 6 years is assumed to have been denied tenure since he moves to a lower group of schools. As another example, a person who moves 5 or fewer years after his initial appointment is not assumed to have been denied tenure since he moved before the tenure window (years 6 through 8 at an institution) starts." Arbitrary binning of universities, using a change in employer as a proxy for getting tenure, using number of papers published as a measure of productivity, fitting lines to a relationship that does not appear linear (and in fact cannot be linear since fraction getting tenure must be in the range 0-1). This issue may exist, but I don't think this analysis is capable of producing anything convincing.

vilda 11y ago
These types of arguments should be made by peer reviewers. Addressing these makes the paper (and research) stronger. Unfortunately, there is a lot of internal corruption in academia, which makes this feedback ineffective. If you apply for a grant, you already have to outline results of our research. Heather Sarsons, the author, is a doctoral fellow in the "Inequality and Social Policy program". She is paid to find inequality. If she won't find any, she would be unsuccessful. The same holds for colleagues--who actually do peer review. They are on the same ship. It's not a critique of this work, but the overall climate in academia. About 80% of papers in health science was found to be unreproducible. Guess why.
- omginternets 11y ago
  >It's not a critique of this work, but the overall climate in academia. I think it's both. Contentious though this may be, I think that the reproductibility problems in academia invite us to consider the idea that we may be hiring political activists to do research.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

cokernel 11y ago

I notice that Sarsons's paper says on the very first page: "NOTE: Very preliminary – please do not cite without permission. Comments welcome." I wonder if Cowen sought permission or just ignored that sentence? I am aware that linking to something from a blog isn't exactly the same as citing it (presumably Sarsons is trying to discourage citations in other papers), but Cowen could have mentioned, but didn't mention, the preliminary nature of the paper when quoting the abstract.

lsc 11y ago

Now, I don't know, but my impression is that the appearance of confidence (by which I mean the things associated with confidence, like being tall, speaking in a loud voice, being a guy, having a higher level of social competence, etc...) have a lot to do with how much credit you get for doing a thing when it is obvious that credit is being shared. I mean, that's just my impression, not a study or anything... but it is something I observe, and it's weird because my own bias is to assume that the less confident or less socially competent person did most of the work.