9 ms·

They didn't link to either of their sources, so I went and found them: Mountain View Police Department blog post: http://mountainviewpoliceblog.com/2015/11/12/

by finnn 11y ago

They didn't link to either of their sources, so I went and found them: Mountain View Police Department blog post: http://mountainviewpoliceblog.com/2015/11/12/inquiring-minds-want-to-know/ http://mountainviewpoliceblog.com/2015/11/12/inquiring-minds... Google Self-Driving Car Project Google+ post: https://plus.google.com/+SelfDrivingCar/posts/j9ouVZSZnRf https://plus.google.com/+SelfDrivingCar/posts/j9ouVZSZnRf

declan 11y ago
Thanks! That MV police blog post says the traffic officer stopped the car to "educate the operators about impeding traffic per 22400(a) of the California Vehicle Code." That section of the vehicle code says, emphasis added: "No person shall drive upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, unless the reduced speed is necessary for safe operation, because of a grade, or in compliance with law." https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c7/a2/22400 https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c... If Google's self-driving cars are limited by law to 25mph, and the car was not exceeding 25mph, then it was "in compliance with the law" and 22400(a) doesn't apply. It would be allowed to impede or block traffic, even if we human drivers would really prefer it to be going 45mph.
- geon 11y ago
  Is it at all allowed to drive slow vehicles like tractors or scooters on a highway? Here in Sweden, highways are off limits if the vehicle may not legally be driven faster than (i think) 45 kmph.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    In the US there are many roads with access limitations and minimum speeds, but many do not have those conditions.
  - Piskvorrr 11y ago
    That's a bit of a "lost in translation" issue here: what is usually called a "highway" in Europe is usually a "freeway" in the USA. What we'd just call a "road" (pretty much any road) is called a "highway" in the US legal codes.
    - Amezarak 11y ago
      > what is usually called a "highway" in Europe is usually a "freeway" in the USA. I think that usage is mostly West Coast. :) Everywhere else, I've only heard "highway" or "interstate."
      - maxerickson 11y ago
        Freeway is fairly common in many parts of the US: http://www4.uwm.edu/FLL/linguistics/dialect/staticmaps/q_79.html http://www4.uwm.edu/FLL/linguistics/dialect/staticmaps/q_79.... In common usage highway is still sort of reserved for larger connectors, road and street are used for local stuff.
- viraptor 11y ago
  Due to unfortunate phrasing, "no person" was driving at such slow speed ;)
  - afarrell 11y ago
    Google, a subsidiary of Alphabet, was operating the car, no?
    - WildUtah 11y ago
      Alphabet's Google, as we say, was operating the car. And corporations are people, my friend.
      - bryanrasmussen 11y ago
        You know Alphabet has binder full of corporations so they can always send another one over to drive the car if the police take the current driver into custody.
      - cbd1984 11y ago
        > And corporations are people Can we have at least one discussion forum where the notion of corporate personhood isn't abused into idiocy like this? Maybe here on a discussion board run by Y Combinator, a company with the mission of helping to create new corporations?
        afarrell 11y ago
        I agree that in general, this quote gets brought into the discussion rather blindly. But in this specific case, I assert (without an actual legal background) that the word "person" in this law would refer to Google and that this loophole wouldn't work.
        cbd1984 11y ago
        > I assert (without an actual legal background) that the word "person" in this law would refer to Google Of course it wouldn't.
- kissickas 11y ago
  Is that required by law? FTA '"We've capped the speed of our prototype vehicles at 25 mph for safety reasons," the post explained. "We want them to feel friendly and approachable, rather than zooming scarily through neighborhood streets."' Sounds like Google's decision to me. Either way, it's not a highway, so that section seems irrelevant. And "in compliance with the law" is quite a broad redirect.
  - DrScump 11y ago
    You're confusing highway with freeway. A highway, as defined in the CVC, is the generic term for any public road on which the Vehicle Code applies, even if it's one lane each way: '360. “Highway” is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly maintained and open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. Highway includes street.' As for the speed limiter, a 25 MPH hard limit is ridiculous unless they were limiting usage to streets with a 25MPH limit.
  - deathanatos 11y ago
    > Either way, it's not a highway, so that section seems irrelevant. (IANAL) "Highway" means road or street[1]: > 360. "Highway" is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly maintained and open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. Highway includes street. (I've never actually heard highway used in common speech that way; only in the vehicle code, but that I think is what would count here.) The article also seems to indicate this was El Camino Real, which is also CA State Route 82. [1]: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d1/360 https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d1/36... It should also be here[2], but that page is blank for some odd reason. [2]: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayexpandedbranch.xhtml?tocCode=VEH&division=1.&title=&part=&chapter=&article= https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayexpand...
    - DrScump 11y ago
      loads fine for me. at first, I thought maybe you had the old link (it moved last year, but they left the old one up, broken)
    - 11y ago
- forgettableuser 11y ago
  That MV police blog post says the traffic officer stopped the car to "educate the operators about impeding traffic per 22400(a) of the California Vehicle Code." Sounds like a Dukes of Hazzard episode where the Duke boys are driving a piece of junk and Rosco gets them in his speed trap. They explain that the car is incapable of exceeding the speed limit, so he gets them for impeding traffic.
- ThePhysicist 11y ago
  I think if the vehicle is only able to drive 25 mph it is not allowed to drive on the freeway, otherwise one would need to allow tractors by the same argument. In most European countries there is a minimum speed requirement when driving on thr motorway (usually between 60 - 80 km/h), and sometimes there are even lane-specific speed limits (e.g. left lane requires at least 110 km/h). All that is only relevant if the traffic actually allows you to go that fast of course.
  - Piskvorrr 11y ago
    It was not driving on a freeway. It was going 25 in a 35 zone, taking one whole lane out of 3 in that direction. Shocking, SHOCKING! ;o) https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3955848,-122.1017317,3a,75y,122.35h,83.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srLqqFW212TJV_LOwGkADVw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3955848,-122.1017317,3a,75y,...
    - webjprgm 11y ago
      El Camino is annoying enough to drive on that it really would be quite frustrating. Depending on the time of day.
    - cyber 11y ago
      Yes, it was: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=00001-01000&file=100-680 http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&gr... states: "360. "Highway" is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly maintained and open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. Highway includes street." https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c7/a2/22400 https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c... "22400. (a) No person shall drive upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, unless the reduced speed is necessary for safe operation, because of a grade, or in compliance with law." Yes, shocking. (Also, El Camino is a State Route, I'll let you look that one up.)
  - PinguTS 11y ago
    In Germany the 60 km/h is not required in terms of minimum speed. It is required in terms, that the vehicle is capable of driving that speed. My Hanomag A-L 28 is a maximum speed in the papers of 78 km/h. As such I am allowed on the Autobahn, even that I am driving only 50 km/h or sometimes 40 km/h on a hill. Because each hill does slow down a Hanomag considerably.
- eatmyshorts 11y ago
  Well, the law also says "upon a highway"...which seems in line with my observations that I only ever see minimum speed limits posted on highways. It sounds to me like the google vehicle was in compliance with the law.
  - cyber 11y ago
    See CVC 360 "360. "Highway" is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly maintained and open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. Highway includes street." http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=00001-01000&file=100-680 http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&gr...
developer1 11y ago
It's absurd that 24 mph in a 35 zone is considered "too slow". This is nearly equivalent to driving 40 km/h in a 60 km/h zone, and there is not a single traffic court in any Canadian city that would uphold a ticket being served for that difference. How is this even a thing down there? In a 60 km/h zone here, you'd have to be going 25 km/h to even warrant being pulled over at all (ie: doing 15 mph in 37 mph zone). If 24 mph is too slow for that particular road or neighbourhood, then the speed limit should be 45+ mph, not 35. Clearly the average citizen is already driving 45+, or the "slow" wouldn't even be noticeable. Edit: wait, this is even more absurd. The traffic violation quoted is https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c7/a2/22400 https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c... which mentions "highway". 35 mph or 56 km/h is residential street speed, not highway speed. This whole thing makes no sense to me.
- coderdude 11y ago
  I'm California USA, driving too slow is considered a hazard. It's kinda fuzzy to be honest. They can still pop you for speeding whenever they want but they're really looking for the person who stands out.
- fletchowns 11y ago
  In California, if you aren't driving 5 mph over the speed limit, the car behind you is going to tailgate the hell out of you. It's ridiculous, I know.
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    I think it's universal behavior. Driving at speed limits gets you angry looks, below speed limit and people wanna hurt you. All that so they can reach the red light earlier.
    - clort 11y ago
      > angry looks I wonder how well the self driving car copes with these. In fact, I wonder how well the self driving car copes with an overly aggressive driver cutting in front and slamming on their brakes just to piss you off. I guess it would handle that better than my mothers elderly neighbour who recently didn't manage to brake in time and hit the twerp, writing off her vehicle in the process. Of course, it was counted as her fault since she struck the car in front..

by finnn 11y ago

declan 11y ago

Thanks! That MV police blog post says the traffic officer stopped the car to "educate the operators about impeding traffic per 22400(a) of the California Vehicle Code." That section of the vehicle code says, emphasis added: "No person shall drive upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, unless the reduced speed is necessary for safe operation, because of a grade, or in compliance with law." https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c7/a2/22400 https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c... If Google's self-driving cars are limited by law to 25mph, and the car was not exceeding 25mph, then it was "in compliance with the law" and 22400(a) doesn't apply. It would be allowed to impede or block traffic, even if we human drivers would really prefer it to be going 45mph.

geon 11y ago
Is it at all allowed to drive slow vehicles like tractors or scooters on a highway? Here in Sweden, highways are off limits if the vehicle may not legally be driven faster than (i think) 45 kmph.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  In the US there are many roads with access limitations and minimum speeds, but many do not have those conditions.
- Piskvorrr 11y ago
  That's a bit of a "lost in translation" issue here: what is usually called a "highway" in Europe is usually a "freeway" in the USA. What we'd just call a "road" (pretty much any road) is called a "highway" in the US legal codes.
  - Amezarak 11y ago
    > what is usually called a "highway" in Europe is usually a "freeway" in the USA. I think that usage is mostly West Coast. :) Everywhere else, I've only heard "highway" or "interstate."
    - maxerickson 11y ago
      Freeway is fairly common in many parts of the US: http://www4.uwm.edu/FLL/linguistics/dialect/staticmaps/q_79.html http://www4.uwm.edu/FLL/linguistics/dialect/staticmaps/q_79.... In common usage highway is still sort of reserved for larger connectors, road and street are used for local stuff.
viraptor 11y ago
Due to unfortunate phrasing, "no person" was driving at such slow speed ;)
- afarrell 11y ago
  Google, a subsidiary of Alphabet, was operating the car, no?
  - WildUtah 11y ago
    Alphabet's Google, as we say, was operating the car. And corporations are people, my friend.
    - bryanrasmussen 11y ago
      You know Alphabet has binder full of corporations so they can always send another one over to drive the car if the police take the current driver into custody.
    - cbd1984 11y ago
      > And corporations are people Can we have at least one discussion forum where the notion of corporate personhood isn't abused into idiocy like this? Maybe here on a discussion board run by Y Combinator, a company with the mission of helping to create new corporations?
      - afarrell 11y ago
        I agree that in general, this quote gets brought into the discussion rather blindly. But in this specific case, I assert (without an actual legal background) that the word "person" in this law would refer to Google and that this loophole wouldn't work.
        cbd1984 11y ago
        > I assert (without an actual legal background) that the word "person" in this law would refer to Google Of course it wouldn't.
kissickas 11y ago
Is that required by law? FTA '"We've capped the speed of our prototype vehicles at 25 mph for safety reasons," the post explained. "We want them to feel friendly and approachable, rather than zooming scarily through neighborhood streets."' Sounds like Google's decision to me. Either way, it's not a highway, so that section seems irrelevant. And "in compliance with the law" is quite a broad redirect.
- DrScump 11y ago
  You're confusing highway with freeway. A highway, as defined in the CVC, is the generic term for any public road on which the Vehicle Code applies, even if it's one lane each way: '360. “Highway” is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly maintained and open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. Highway includes street.' As for the speed limiter, a 25 MPH hard limit is ridiculous unless they were limiting usage to streets with a 25MPH limit.
- deathanatos 11y ago
  > Either way, it's not a highway, so that section seems irrelevant. (IANAL) "Highway" means road or street[1]: > 360. "Highway" is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly maintained and open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. Highway includes street. (I've never actually heard highway used in common speech that way; only in the vehicle code, but that I think is what would count here.) The article also seems to indicate this was El Camino Real, which is also CA State Route 82. [1]: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d1/360 https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d1/36... It should also be here[2], but that page is blank for some odd reason. [2]: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayexpandedbranch.xhtml?tocCode=VEH&division=1.&title=&part=&chapter=&article= https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayexpand...
  - DrScump 11y ago
    loads fine for me. at first, I thought maybe you had the old link (it moved last year, but they left the old one up, broken)
  - 11y ago
forgettableuser 11y ago
That MV police blog post says the traffic officer stopped the car to "educate the operators about impeding traffic per 22400(a) of the California Vehicle Code." Sounds like a Dukes of Hazzard episode where the Duke boys are driving a piece of junk and Rosco gets them in his speed trap. They explain that the car is incapable of exceeding the speed limit, so he gets them for impeding traffic.
ThePhysicist 11y ago
I think if the vehicle is only able to drive 25 mph it is not allowed to drive on the freeway, otherwise one would need to allow tractors by the same argument. In most European countries there is a minimum speed requirement when driving on thr motorway (usually between 60 - 80 km/h), and sometimes there are even lane-specific speed limits (e.g. left lane requires at least 110 km/h). All that is only relevant if the traffic actually allows you to go that fast of course.
- Piskvorrr 11y ago
  It was not driving on a freeway. It was going 25 in a 35 zone, taking one whole lane out of 3 in that direction. Shocking, SHOCKING! ;o) https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3955848,-122.1017317,3a,75y,122.35h,83.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srLqqFW212TJV_LOwGkADVw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3955848,-122.1017317,3a,75y,...
  - webjprgm 11y ago
    El Camino is annoying enough to drive on that it really would be quite frustrating. Depending on the time of day.
  - cyber 11y ago
    Yes, it was: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=00001-01000&file=100-680 http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&gr... states: "360. "Highway" is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly maintained and open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. Highway includes street." https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c7/a2/22400 https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c... "22400. (a) No person shall drive upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, unless the reduced speed is necessary for safe operation, because of a grade, or in compliance with law." Yes, shocking. (Also, El Camino is a State Route, I'll let you look that one up.)
- PinguTS 11y ago
  In Germany the 60 km/h is not required in terms of minimum speed. It is required in terms, that the vehicle is capable of driving that speed. My Hanomag A-L 28 is a maximum speed in the papers of 78 km/h. As such I am allowed on the Autobahn, even that I am driving only 50 km/h or sometimes 40 km/h on a hill. Because each hill does slow down a Hanomag considerably.
eatmyshorts 11y ago
Well, the law also says "upon a highway"...which seems in line with my observations that I only ever see minimum speed limits posted on highways. It sounds to me like the google vehicle was in compliance with the law.
- cyber 11y ago
  See CVC 360 "360. "Highway" is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly maintained and open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. Highway includes street." http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=00001-01000&file=100-680 http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&gr...

developer1 11y ago

It's absurd that 24 mph in a 35 zone is considered "too slow". This is nearly equivalent to driving 40 km/h in a 60 km/h zone, and there is not a single traffic court in any Canadian city that would uphold a ticket being served for that difference. How is this even a thing down there? In a 60 km/h zone here, you'd have to be going 25 km/h to even warrant being pulled over at all (ie: doing 15 mph in 37 mph zone). If 24 mph is too slow for that particular road or neighbourhood, then the speed limit should be 45+ mph, not 35. Clearly the average citizen is already driving 45+, or the "slow" wouldn't even be noticeable. Edit: wait, this is even more absurd. The traffic violation quoted is https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c7/a2/22400 https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c... which mentions "highway". 35 mph or 56 km/h is residential street speed, not highway speed. This whole thing makes no sense to me.

coderdude 11y ago
I'm California USA, driving too slow is considered a hazard. It's kinda fuzzy to be honest. They can still pop you for speeding whenever they want but they're really looking for the person who stands out.
fletchowns 11y ago
In California, if you aren't driving 5 mph over the speed limit, the car behind you is going to tailgate the hell out of you. It's ridiculous, I know.
- agumonkey 11y ago
  I think it's universal behavior. Driving at speed limits gets you angry looks, below speed limit and people wanna hurt you. All that so they can reach the red light earlier.
  - clort 11y ago
    > angry looks I wonder how well the self driving car copes with these. In fact, I wonder how well the self driving car copes with an overly aggressive driver cutting in front and slamming on their brakes just to piss you off. I guess it would handle that better than my mothers elderly neighbour who recently didn't manage to brake in time and hit the twerp, writing off her vehicle in the process. Of course, it was counted as her fault since she struck the car in front..