7 ms·

When Disney Got Adult and Trippy

86 points by prismatic 11y ago

100k0s 11y ago
"People who insist on pigeonholing him as a purveyor of bland family entertainment ..." Seriously, who has ever said that?
- RickHull 11y ago
  I'll say it. It characterizes the Michael Eisner regime pretty well in my recollection.
- smacktoward 11y ago
  Go back and look at what Disney was putting out when the Baby Boomers were coming of age. The '60s and '70s -- the Dean Jones (http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Dean_Jones http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Dean_Jones) era. It's all stuff like That Darn Cat! and Son of Flubber and The Shaggy D.A., which is to say it's about as square as square can be. In an era when the boundaries of popular culture were being very aggressively stretched, Disney deliberately positioned itself as a producer of safe, conservative entertainment.
  - fennecfoxen 11y ago
    Even if you're a staunch ally of safe, conservative family entertainment for its own sake, Disney was pretty damn crappy for a while. Look at their animated stuff in particular for plenty of mediocre storylines and bland animation (e.g. The Aristocats, The Fox and the Hound, Robin Hood). Children deserved better! Eventually some meaningful competition from the likes of Don Bluth started to push them in the right direction (Secret of NIMH, Land before Time, All Dogs Go to Heaven, etc.) and not too long afterward they were doing things like Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin. Quite an improvement, though I dare say the storylines have never quite caught up. (Of course, all of Bluth's stuff would later be undermined as it was sequel-ized to Hell and back, like The Land Before Time XXIV: Teach Your Kids Roman Numerals Edition...) Right now, though, after seeing Pixar's homages to Ghibli, I'm anticipating the impact of recent works like Puella Magi Madoka Magica, which really pushed some boundaries in Japan. (If you're not familiar with it, I'll just say... imagine if Pan's Labyrinth had been actively marketed to little children as a happy family film and an homage to Alice in Wonderland... and then translate that willful deception and the profound darkness onto Sailor Moon.) If it does make a splash in the youth entertainment industry at large, that will be quite interesting indeed.
    - silentplummet 11y ago
      Hey, don't knock Robin Hood. Watch the archery contest in reverse to see King John stuff the snake into his nether-parts.
    - mjevans 11y ago
      I think it depends more on the intended target audience. The films you have issue with feel like they fit in well with the attention span, vibrant colors and little funny scenes for children in the 6 to 9 year old range to enjoy. I consider anything beyond that something added in to keep the parents awake and the animators sane (or functionally insane as the case might be). The second list of films you mention have emotionally moving plots and I'd consider them a good fit for the next demographic bump, roughly 9-13. I think I might have cried to a film for the first time watching ADgtH as a kid. Puella Magi Madoka Magica is definitely mature. It has intense situations, highly emotional plot, and story elements that younger humans would be less equipped to relate to. I still highly recommend watching at least the first 3 episodes. If you're still on the fence watch another 3 episodes. The third movie is new content... I couldn't resist it, but the series/first two movies are a complete story without it.
- pnathan 11y ago
  I was born in the 80s, and pretty much that's all Disney has ever represented to me, outside of the black and white Walt Disney surrealist work.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    The most striking for me is how they are going back and editing out "controversial" scenes from older stuff. For example there is one where Donald is up against the aracuan bird, where he eventually is fed up and pulls a Maxim gun out of nowhere. The bird survives unharmed, classic cartoon style, and Donald snaps, starts behaving like said bird, and wanders off as things fade to black. Good luck finding that scene today. Now it just jumps from the bird sitting in a lawn chair to Donald wandering off.
    - pnathan 11y ago
      Interesting. I knew that some of the older, more racist, stuff was being quietly not shown anymore. Wasn't aware they'd be chopping at the strips themselves. Of course, I haven't watched the pablum in years myself. :-}
      - digi_owl 11y ago
        I think the reason why it is being chopped is that is usually a part of the Christmas special.
joe_bleau 11y ago
The movie was also responsible for a variant (HP 200B) of the very first Hewlett Packard product, the HP 200A audio frequency oscillator. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP200A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP200A http://h20435.www2.hp.com/t5/The-Next-Bench-Blog/TFTNB-Disney-Bought-First-HP-Product/ba-p/58303Disney-Bought-First-HP-Product/td-p/347165 http://h20435.www2.hp.com/t5/The-Next-Bench-Blog/TFTNB-Disne...
tunesmith 11y ago
Fantasia is incredible. I also still think it's an underutilized art form to have the music drive the picture rather than the other way around (three-minute music videos aside). For instance, I've always thought that Mahler's 3rd symphony could make an epic fantasy film - actors, battles, special effects, and no spoken dialogue.
- dwiel 11y ago
  not necessarily classical, but Koyaanisqatsi is similar to what you are describing.
  - darkr 11y ago
    An excellent film. The cinematographer on Koyaanisqatsi (I forget his name) also directed two films called Baraka and more recently Samsara, which are in the same vein if you're into that kind of thing.
    - ihartley 11y ago
      Godfrey Reggio also did Powaqqatsi and Naqoyqatsi, which are similar with different themes.
- mortenjorck 11y ago
  There are some great contemporary directors in the music video space that are doing amazing narrative work with the format. I'd definitely check out these pieces by Tom Haines (https://vimeo.com/72176166 https://vimeo.com/72176166) and Abteen Bagheri (https://vimeo.com/129684032 https://vimeo.com/129684032).
- santaclaus 11y ago
  Isn't that basically an opera (or even musical theater)?
  - abhorrence 11y ago
    At face value it seems similar, but story telling via music without using words (as in opera or musical theater) tends to result in something vastly different.
padobson 11y ago
"Industry pundits predicted that no one would sit still for a cartoon feature. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs proved otherwise and blazed the trail for the industry." Nobody knew how to make serious money on short animations, animated features, or theme parks before Walt Disney. He did it all though. He also wanted to try out the utopia thing[1], and it's maybe the 20th century's greatest missed opportunity. If you haven't read Walt Disney's World[2], it's my favorite biography on the great man. [1]https://youtu.be/sLCHg9mUBag https://youtu.be/sLCHg9mUBag [2]http://amzn.to/1lnptm0 http://amzn.to/1lnptm0
- plonh 11y ago
  Not sure I want to live in Walt Disney's utopia. He was great at his business, the original Jobsian, but dialed it up a bit too far. www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1623/was-walt-disney-a-fascist
everly 11y ago
I recently went to the Walt Disney Family Museum in SF for the special exhibit "Disney and Dali" (still there until 1/3/16). It's an interesting look at their mutual admiration and brief professional collaboration. The regular museum is also well worth a few hours of time, even if you don't consider yourself a huge Disney fan. Walt was an incredible innovator and risk-taker and I found it very inspiring.
- cpeterso 11y ago
  Disney and Dalí's unmade Destino short film was eventually recreated digitally by John Hench, the Disney artist who worked with Dalí back in the 1940s. It is on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GFkN4deuZU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GFkN4deuZU Also, a link to the exhibit at the Walt Disney Family Museum: http://www.waltdisney.org/dali http://www.waltdisney.org/dali
tcdent 11y ago
I tried to watch Fantasia as a child a few times, but was never able to make it all the way through. It remains sort of a misunderstood anomaly on the shelf of early Disney movies. Haven't given it an honest try in a few years. Perhaps some 'adult substances' would help. I still enjoy most of the others.
- anonbanker 11y ago
  adult substances make most disney movies better. especially the live-action movies.
- mdlowman 11y ago
  I usually skip the Rite of Spring, but love every other piece. Probably because I was trying to watch the visuals too hard instead of listening. But the important thing to remember about Fantasia is that it's not a coherent story, it's a set of shorts. You can watch subsets, skip some, or really do what you want. Just watch Night on Bald Mountain/Ave Maria, or the Dance of the Hours, or whatever you want. And give Fantasia 2000 a shot. Not as good, but still fun. Firebird was great.
darkr 11y ago
I've just realised that the dinosaur scene from Terrance Malick's Tree of Life is a hat tip/rip-off of the weird dinosaur battle set to Stravinsky's Rites of Spring in Fantasia.

86 points by prismatic 11y ago

"People who insist on pigeonholing him as a purveyor of bland family entertainment ..." Seriously, who has ever said that?

RickHull 11y ago
I'll say it. It characterizes the Michael Eisner regime pretty well in my recollection.
smacktoward 11y ago
Go back and look at what Disney was putting out when the Baby Boomers were coming of age. The '60s and '70s -- the Dean Jones (http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Dean_Jones http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Dean_Jones) era. It's all stuff like That Darn Cat! and Son of Flubber and The Shaggy D.A., which is to say it's about as square as square can be. In an era when the boundaries of popular culture were being very aggressively stretched, Disney deliberately positioned itself as a producer of safe, conservative entertainment.
- fennecfoxen 11y ago
  Even if you're a staunch ally of safe, conservative family entertainment for its own sake, Disney was pretty damn crappy for a while. Look at their animated stuff in particular for plenty of mediocre storylines and bland animation (e.g. The Aristocats, The Fox and the Hound, Robin Hood). Children deserved better! Eventually some meaningful competition from the likes of Don Bluth started to push them in the right direction (Secret of NIMH, Land before Time, All Dogs Go to Heaven, etc.) and not too long afterward they were doing things like Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin. Quite an improvement, though I dare say the storylines have never quite caught up. (Of course, all of Bluth's stuff would later be undermined as it was sequel-ized to Hell and back, like The Land Before Time XXIV: Teach Your Kids Roman Numerals Edition...) Right now, though, after seeing Pixar's homages to Ghibli, I'm anticipating the impact of recent works like Puella Magi Madoka Magica, which really pushed some boundaries in Japan. (If you're not familiar with it, I'll just say... imagine if Pan's Labyrinth had been actively marketed to little children as a happy family film and an homage to Alice in Wonderland... and then translate that willful deception and the profound darkness onto Sailor Moon.) If it does make a splash in the youth entertainment industry at large, that will be quite interesting indeed.
  - silentplummet 11y ago
    Hey, don't knock Robin Hood. Watch the archery contest in reverse to see King John stuff the snake into his nether-parts.
  - mjevans 11y ago
    I think it depends more on the intended target audience. The films you have issue with feel like they fit in well with the attention span, vibrant colors and little funny scenes for children in the 6 to 9 year old range to enjoy. I consider anything beyond that something added in to keep the parents awake and the animators sane (or functionally insane as the case might be). The second list of films you mention have emotionally moving plots and I'd consider them a good fit for the next demographic bump, roughly 9-13. I think I might have cried to a film for the first time watching ADgtH as a kid. Puella Magi Madoka Magica is definitely mature. It has intense situations, highly emotional plot, and story elements that younger humans would be less equipped to relate to. I still highly recommend watching at least the first 3 episodes. If you're still on the fence watch another 3 episodes. The third movie is new content... I couldn't resist it, but the series/first two movies are a complete story without it.
pnathan 11y ago
I was born in the 80s, and pretty much that's all Disney has ever represented to me, outside of the black and white Walt Disney surrealist work.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  The most striking for me is how they are going back and editing out "controversial" scenes from older stuff. For example there is one where Donald is up against the aracuan bird, where he eventually is fed up and pulls a Maxim gun out of nowhere. The bird survives unharmed, classic cartoon style, and Donald snaps, starts behaving like said bird, and wanders off as things fade to black. Good luck finding that scene today. Now it just jumps from the bird sitting in a lawn chair to Donald wandering off.
  - pnathan 11y ago
    Interesting. I knew that some of the older, more racist, stuff was being quietly not shown anymore. Wasn't aware they'd be chopping at the strips themselves. Of course, I haven't watched the pablum in years myself. :-}
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      I think the reason why it is being chopped is that is usually a part of the Christmas special.

joe_bleau 11y ago

The movie was also responsible for a variant (HP 200B) of the very first Hewlett Packard product, the HP 200A audio frequency oscillator. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP200A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP200A http://h20435.www2.hp.com/t5/The-Next-Bench-Blog/TFTNB-Disney-Bought-First-HP-Product/ba-p/58303Disney-Bought-First-HP-Product/td-p/347165 http://h20435.www2.hp.com/t5/The-Next-Bench-Blog/TFTNB-Disne...

tunesmith 11y ago

Fantasia is incredible. I also still think it's an underutilized art form to have the music drive the picture rather than the other way around (three-minute music videos aside). For instance, I've always thought that Mahler's 3rd symphony could make an epic fantasy film - actors, battles, special effects, and no spoken dialogue.

dwiel 11y ago
not necessarily classical, but Koyaanisqatsi is similar to what you are describing.
- darkr 11y ago
  An excellent film. The cinematographer on Koyaanisqatsi (I forget his name) also directed two films called Baraka and more recently Samsara, which are in the same vein if you're into that kind of thing.
  - ihartley 11y ago
    Godfrey Reggio also did Powaqqatsi and Naqoyqatsi, which are similar with different themes.
mortenjorck 11y ago
There are some great contemporary directors in the music video space that are doing amazing narrative work with the format. I'd definitely check out these pieces by Tom Haines (https://vimeo.com/72176166 https://vimeo.com/72176166) and Abteen Bagheri (https://vimeo.com/129684032 https://vimeo.com/129684032).
santaclaus 11y ago
Isn't that basically an opera (or even musical theater)?
- abhorrence 11y ago
  At face value it seems similar, but story telling via music without using words (as in opera or musical theater) tends to result in something vastly different.

padobson 11y ago

"Industry pundits predicted that no one would sit still for a cartoon feature. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs proved otherwise and blazed the trail for the industry." Nobody knew how to make serious money on short animations, animated features, or theme parks before Walt Disney. He did it all though. He also wanted to try out the utopia thing[1], and it's maybe the 20th century's greatest missed opportunity. If you haven't read Walt Disney's World[2], it's my favorite biography on the great man. [1]https://youtu.be/sLCHg9mUBag https://youtu.be/sLCHg9mUBag [2]http://amzn.to/1lnptm0 http://amzn.to/1lnptm0

plonh 11y ago
Not sure I want to live in Walt Disney's utopia. He was great at his business, the original Jobsian, but dialed it up a bit too far. www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1623/was-walt-disney-a-fascist

everly 11y ago

I recently went to the Walt Disney Family Museum in SF for the special exhibit "Disney and Dali" (still there until 1/3/16). It's an interesting look at their mutual admiration and brief professional collaboration. The regular museum is also well worth a few hours of time, even if you don't consider yourself a huge Disney fan. Walt was an incredible innovator and risk-taker and I found it very inspiring.

cpeterso 11y ago
Disney and Dalí's unmade Destino short film was eventually recreated digitally by John Hench, the Disney artist who worked with Dalí back in the 1940s. It is on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GFkN4deuZU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GFkN4deuZU Also, a link to the exhibit at the Walt Disney Family Museum: http://www.waltdisney.org/dali http://www.waltdisney.org/dali

tcdent 11y ago

I tried to watch Fantasia as a child a few times, but was never able to make it all the way through. It remains sort of a misunderstood anomaly on the shelf of early Disney movies. Haven't given it an honest try in a few years. Perhaps some 'adult substances' would help. I still enjoy most of the others.

anonbanker 11y ago
adult substances make most disney movies better. especially the live-action movies.
mdlowman 11y ago
I usually skip the Rite of Spring, but love every other piece. Probably because I was trying to watch the visuals too hard instead of listening. But the important thing to remember about Fantasia is that it's not a coherent story, it's a set of shorts. You can watch subsets, skip some, or really do what you want. Just watch Night on Bald Mountain/Ave Maria, or the Dance of the Hours, or whatever you want. And give Fantasia 2000 a shot. Not as good, but still fun. Firebird was great.

darkr 11y ago

I've just realised that the dinosaur scene from Terrance Malick's Tree of Life is a hat tip/rip-off of the weird dinosaur battle set to Stravinsky's Rites of Spring in Fantasia.