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As it should be. The whole system is underpinned by the assumption that no one can cheat. Everyone knows tons of people cheat, but any university who has a "n-s

As it should be. The whole system is underpinned by the assumption that no one can cheat. Everyone knows tons of people cheat, but any university who has a "n-strike" policy for academic dishonesty (aka fraud), is purely in it for the money. To students who busted their asses to graduate legitimately, it's a hard slap in the face.

jes 11y ago
I think I know what you're saying. Still I wonder if perhaps the students that worked diligently and honestly gained more in the long run.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  I was this kind of student, to the bemusement of people at my year. And I can say we like to tell ourselves that - that by honest learning we somehow gained more. But to be honest, what you do at work is so different than what you learn at university that in retrospect, you may just cheat your way through bullshit exams. If you're an autodidact, it could be even better for you, since you won't waste so much time learning nonsense to pass arbitrary performance bars. I'm not encouraging cheating here. But I learned that sometimes you have to accept that you hold to some rules just because morality, and you don't need to invent practical reasons to justify it to yourself and others. Sometimes following the rules leaves you worse off, but the world where people follow those rules is better for everyone than the world where they don't, and I want to live in the former.
  - will_pseudonym 11y ago
    I feel much the same way. Especially centered around worthless electives classes when I was studying maths. If I was interested in "Movies & Music," I would be reading about it already, and it's completely unrelated to my subject matter.
overgard 11y ago
That's way too hardline, surely some people are wrongly accused or some cases are borderline. This sort of "zero tolerance" nonsense always just ends up removing human judgement and common sense from the equation. Also the idea that "the system is underpinned by the notion nobody can cheat" is absurd. Cheating is rampant! Even in the ivy leagues. Especially in the ivy leagues! But people still value college degrees.
- will_pseudonym 11y ago
  Cheating is rampant, but that doesn't mean that we all as a society don't still ignore that fact! It's a beautiful display of cognitive dissonance. There's no way to know if someone truly achieved their degree, so you have to test them, which is one of the reasons the degree was valuable. You shouldn't have to test someone if they had certain credentials. They've passed their rigorous training program. I'm not really a fan of no tolerance policies; I would rather the system be re-evaluated so that credentialing and training are the goals of the system, not pushing as many credit hours through the administration as possible. :)
  - simonh 11y ago
    A system where you fail the exam and three strikes and you're out != ignoring the problem.
746F7475 11y ago
I probably have super skewed view on the matter, but what is the point of expelling someone for cheating? Not everyone learns the same way and not everyone needs the same set of skills/knowledge. I feel like people put way too much value on a degree considering what real world is like. So far in my short SW engineering career I haven't used a single thing I "learned" from my B.Sc degree, but what school did was to let me hang around with same minded people for few years which encouraged us to work on side projects together which taught us way more than any class. That being said, I didn't cheat either, but I don't think cheating once is a good grounds for expelling someone.
- cbd1984 11y ago
  > I probably have super skewed view on the matter, but what is the point of expelling someone for cheating? Devaluing the degrees of everyone who didn't cheat, both economically and socially.
- DanBC 11y ago
  discourages other people?
- ctdonath 11y ago
  As your instructor you are asking me to certify, on my professional reputation and honor, that you know the material and can be expected to perform to minimum standards. If you cheat, you are untrustworthy, disrespectful, incompetent, and willing to engage in behavior which can cost a company millions - or even get people killed. He11 yeah I'll want you expelled.

jes 11y ago

I think I know what you're saying. Still I wonder if perhaps the students that worked diligently and honestly gained more in the long run.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
I was this kind of student, to the bemusement of people at my year. And I can say we like to tell ourselves that - that by honest learning we somehow gained more. But to be honest, what you do at work is so different than what you learn at university that in retrospect, you may just cheat your way through bullshit exams. If you're an autodidact, it could be even better for you, since you won't waste so much time learning nonsense to pass arbitrary performance bars. I'm not encouraging cheating here. But I learned that sometimes you have to accept that you hold to some rules just because morality, and you don't need to invent practical reasons to justify it to yourself and others. Sometimes following the rules leaves you worse off, but the world where people follow those rules is better for everyone than the world where they don't, and I want to live in the former.
- will_pseudonym 11y ago
  I feel much the same way. Especially centered around worthless electives classes when I was studying maths. If I was interested in "Movies & Music," I would be reading about it already, and it's completely unrelated to my subject matter.

overgard 11y ago

That's way too hardline, surely some people are wrongly accused or some cases are borderline. This sort of "zero tolerance" nonsense always just ends up removing human judgement and common sense from the equation. Also the idea that "the system is underpinned by the notion nobody can cheat" is absurd. Cheating is rampant! Even in the ivy leagues. Especially in the ivy leagues! But people still value college degrees.

will_pseudonym 11y ago
Cheating is rampant, but that doesn't mean that we all as a society don't still ignore that fact! It's a beautiful display of cognitive dissonance. There's no way to know if someone truly achieved their degree, so you have to test them, which is one of the reasons the degree was valuable. You shouldn't have to test someone if they had certain credentials. They've passed their rigorous training program. I'm not really a fan of no tolerance policies; I would rather the system be re-evaluated so that credentialing and training are the goals of the system, not pushing as many credit hours through the administration as possible. :)
- simonh 11y ago
  A system where you fail the exam and three strikes and you're out != ignoring the problem.

746F7475 11y ago

I probably have super skewed view on the matter, but what is the point of expelling someone for cheating? Not everyone learns the same way and not everyone needs the same set of skills/knowledge. I feel like people put way too much value on a degree considering what real world is like. So far in my short SW engineering career I haven't used a single thing I "learned" from my B.Sc degree, but what school did was to let me hang around with same minded people for few years which encouraged us to work on side projects together which taught us way more than any class. That being said, I didn't cheat either, but I don't think cheating once is a good grounds for expelling someone.

cbd1984 11y ago
> I probably have super skewed view on the matter, but what is the point of expelling someone for cheating? Devaluing the degrees of everyone who didn't cheat, both economically and socially.
DanBC 11y ago
discourages other people?
ctdonath 11y ago
As your instructor you are asking me to certify, on my professional reputation and honor, that you know the material and can be expected to perform to minimum standards. If you cheat, you are untrustworthy, disrespectful, incompetent, and willing to engage in behavior which can cost a company millions - or even get people killed. He11 yeah I'll want you expelled.