5 ms·

Supposing this line of reasoning is valid, why don't we have Apple decide what we can and can't do with our laptops as well? If you'd make a distinction, why?

by jrcii 11y ago

dijit 11y ago
they kinda do already, and so does microsoft (application signing?), you can just opt out of it, and that's the key exception. also, a general purpose computer is exceedingly different from a cell phone and they have notoriously bad security models. Like I said, my phone runs my life, I don't have a reasonable means to keep it secure (not even on android), a PC, I can attach debuggers to processes and I can lock down my firewall, or I can sniff my network. - I can do none of this on a phone platform reasonably well (AF+ firewall on android requires jailbreak and breaks applications). and I shouldn't have to.. to put it bluntly; I can be responsible for my laptop, I can't be responsible for my phone.
hyperpape 11y ago
1) Apple is actually doing things that limit what you can do on your laptop. There's issues where you have to disable security policies to install OpenVpn or HomeBrew on El Capitan. 2) Apple sees laptops and iOS devices as serving different purposes. It's no secret that there are things you can't do on iOS. While Apple is trying to make iOS more capable in some ways, in other cases, their view is "go buy a laptop or desktop if you can't do what you need on iOS". It's not a crazy view. I'm giving the new restrictions in Mac OS X a serious side-eye--to the extent that I'm halfway considering going back to Linux on the desktop, even though I dislike Linux desktops. However, I find the restrictions on my iPhone painless. I'll just never even consider making an iPad my primary machine.
- karlshea 11y ago
  I'm not sure about OpenVPN, but the only time you'd need to disable rootless for Homebrew is to create /usr/local if it doesn't exist. /usr is write-protected, /usr/local isn't. But if /usr/local doesn't exist you can't create it. This only affects upgrades to 10.11 where /usr/local didn't exist, if it's a clean install Apple creates the directory.
  - kedean 11y ago
    That's besides the point. Apple is still restricting what you do on your laptop by having the underlying system preventing you from creating that yourself. The homebrew issue is just a symptom of the restriction.
    - hyperpape 11y ago
      To be fair, there is a reasonably transparent way to get around it. It's less convenient than typing "sudo" before a command, but it's not the same as having to bypass DRM or some other scheme that's truly designed to prevent you (the person) having access. What I worry about is my ability to keep up with the details of what I can do when and whether this is a trend that will get worse.
- talmand 11y ago
  I don't understand the concept of the "buy that other device if your current device doesn't do the thing you want it to do even though it is perfectly capable of doing it but doesn't because we don't allow it" mindset. Especially since Apple is now telling us we should stop considering buying those other devices.
  - hyperpape 11y ago
    Everything that a device does involves tradeoffs. There are many ways that iPads are simpler and just better than Macs in the areas that they excel. Adding features to the iPad without making it too complicated is hard. You should buy a Mac if you need what a Mac gives you (or if you just want a better keyboard...). You should buy an iPad if you don't. That's Apple's story. The line of who buys what is a little fuzzy sometimes, but it's a pretty simple story.
    - bad_user 11y ago
      It also forces people to buy multiple devices, so that's a win for shareholders.
    - talmand 11y ago
      But what about the part that Cook, from Apple, doesn't understand why someone would buy something other than a tablet these days. What if those Macs go away? What then? Can our iPads and iPhones be allowed to do things they are perfectly capable of doing but Apple doesn't allow it? If so, why not now?
      - hyperpape 11y ago
        The assumption that Macs go away is the assumption that people stop needing to do the things you can currently only do on a Mac. So I don't think your hypothetical is possible. Either iOS gets more capable, or Macs don't go away. Hell, Apple offered an update to the Mac Pro recently, and we know that doesn't sell as many units as the iPad.

Supposing this line of reasoning is valid, why don't we have Apple decide what we can and can't do with our laptops as well? If you'd make a distinction, why?

by jrcii 11y ago

Supposing this line of reasoning is valid, why don't we have Apple decide what we can and can't do with our laptops as well? If you'd make a distinction, why?

dijit 11y ago

they kinda do already, and so does microsoft (application signing?), you can just opt out of it, and that's the key exception. also, a general purpose computer is exceedingly different from a cell phone and they have notoriously bad security models. Like I said, my phone runs my life, I don't have a reasonable means to keep it secure (not even on android), a PC, I can attach debuggers to processes and I can lock down my firewall, or I can sniff my network. - I can do none of this on a phone platform reasonably well (AF+ firewall on android requires jailbreak and breaks applications). and I shouldn't have to.. to put it bluntly; I can be responsible for my laptop, I can't be responsible for my phone.

hyperpape 11y ago

1) Apple is actually doing things that limit what you can do on your laptop. There's issues where you have to disable security policies to install OpenVpn or HomeBrew on El Capitan. 2) Apple sees laptops and iOS devices as serving different purposes. It's no secret that there are things you can't do on iOS. While Apple is trying to make iOS more capable in some ways, in other cases, their view is "go buy a laptop or desktop if you can't do what you need on iOS". It's not a crazy view. I'm giving the new restrictions in Mac OS X a serious side-eye--to the extent that I'm halfway considering going back to Linux on the desktop, even though I dislike Linux desktops. However, I find the restrictions on my iPhone painless. I'll just never even consider making an iPad my primary machine.

karlshea 11y ago
I'm not sure about OpenVPN, but the only time you'd need to disable rootless for Homebrew is to create /usr/local if it doesn't exist. /usr is write-protected, /usr/local isn't. But if /usr/local doesn't exist you can't create it. This only affects upgrades to 10.11 where /usr/local didn't exist, if it's a clean install Apple creates the directory.
- kedean 11y ago
  That's besides the point. Apple is still restricting what you do on your laptop by having the underlying system preventing you from creating that yourself. The homebrew issue is just a symptom of the restriction.
  - hyperpape 11y ago
    To be fair, there is a reasonably transparent way to get around it. It's less convenient than typing "sudo" before a command, but it's not the same as having to bypass DRM or some other scheme that's truly designed to prevent you (the person) having access. What I worry about is my ability to keep up with the details of what I can do when and whether this is a trend that will get worse.
talmand 11y ago
I don't understand the concept of the "buy that other device if your current device doesn't do the thing you want it to do even though it is perfectly capable of doing it but doesn't because we don't allow it" mindset. Especially since Apple is now telling us we should stop considering buying those other devices.
- hyperpape 11y ago
  Everything that a device does involves tradeoffs. There are many ways that iPads are simpler and just better than Macs in the areas that they excel. Adding features to the iPad without making it too complicated is hard. You should buy a Mac if you need what a Mac gives you (or if you just want a better keyboard...). You should buy an iPad if you don't. That's Apple's story. The line of who buys what is a little fuzzy sometimes, but it's a pretty simple story.
  - bad_user 11y ago
    It also forces people to buy multiple devices, so that's a win for shareholders.
  - talmand 11y ago
    But what about the part that Cook, from Apple, doesn't understand why someone would buy something other than a tablet these days. What if those Macs go away? What then? Can our iPads and iPhones be allowed to do things they are perfectly capable of doing but Apple doesn't allow it? If so, why not now?
    - hyperpape 11y ago
      The assumption that Macs go away is the assumption that people stop needing to do the things you can currently only do on a Mac. So I don't think your hypothetical is possible. Either iOS gets more capable, or Macs don't go away. Hell, Apple offered an update to the Mac Pro recently, and we know that doesn't sell as many units as the iPad.