5 ms·

I didn't mean mob in the sense of groupthink, but in the sense of a volatile, easily swayed mass. The situation I'm worried is the one where voters end up bein

by pg 17y ago

I didn't mean mob in the sense of groupthink, but in the sense of a volatile, easily swayed mass. The situation I'm worried is the one where voters end up being like a crowd egging on two people who are fighting.

icey 17y ago
Would pushing highly turbulent comments further down in the thread accomplish some of what you're going for? In a large thread the arguments would fall to the bottom. I would probably rather read an 8 point comment with 10 ups and 2 downs than one with 110 ups and 102 downs.
- gojomo 17y ago
  I would prefer the 110/102 comment. If it has that many upvotes, it's probably not rude or uncivil -- just controversial. Disagreement-downvoters have been nudging it down, but someone else always comes along an nudges it up. That makes it more interesting than a crowd-pandering 10/2. (I think the up/down totals might be shown to good effect, not necessarily cluttering the main thread, but on the item detail/reply page.)
  - elblanco 17y ago
    Total votes as well as up and down votes are just as interesting a metric to determine interest in a comment or post.
crocowhile 17y ago
I don't understand how was thresholding related to this - at all. RoG was getting more downvotes than average HN user (1.88 vs 2.0). How does inhibiting his power to rate help this "crowd egging" thing you are referring to?
- pg 17y ago
  It didn't use to be such a problem, say, a year ago, and my theory was that this was largely because there were fewer voters a year ago. Using comment average seemed like the best way to decrease the effective number of voters. But as I said, it didn't work out as well as I'd hoped.
  - Freebytes 17y ago
    This is just a wild idea without much thought, but I used it on an old web site I maintained that had social interactions. Perhaps you could make a similar system work by giving a salary of points to members. The longer they remain a member, the more points they get, but at the same time, you could make it so a portion of their points are transferred when they vote. This might encourage point hoarding, though, which was a problem that existed with my prior system. (In actuality, my system gave points for participation (visiting the site with some frequency) and removed points through a 'Karma tax' for not visiting the site, and then people could transfer points to each other.)
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      We use a system that is very close to what you describe on a very large site that I have helped to build and it actually works really well. We're thinking of ways to allow people to turn their karma in to more tangible forms of rewards as well, such as one-shot functionality that you pay for with karma and physical goodies from a 'karma store'.
    - elblanco 17y ago
      There was a similar thread on here regarding abuses of downvoting. One idea was to do the following: 1) Earn points by commenting and submitting. 2) Earn points by being voted up. 3) Spend points by voting someone down. 4) Loose points by being voted down.
- RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
  I don't think I get many down votes at all. Out of interest I started tracking my karma a while ago to try to detect these sorts of changes and influences. I seem to get very few down votes. The pattern seems to be more that I make a few contributions that are seen and well regarded. They get lots of votes. I make a few contributions that don't get noticed, or that no one likes. They get no votes. And I make a lot of contributions that cross-reference, location duplications, point people to other discussions, and generally try to help tie things up. I do that because my background in online communities is more in wiki technology, where house-keeping is essential. Those many, many contributions get very little attention, and no up votes. The net result is that all the small notes that try to make things better drag my average down. I think the use of the average karma is mis-guided. At least I can see what mine is, as I'm on the leader board.
  - crocowhile 17y ago
    >Out of interest I started tracking my karma a while ago Geez, you are taking it seriously indeed. I trust PG when he says using average karma didn't help solving the problem but I don't have an opinion myself simply because I didn't even understand what the problem is exactly (Is it people splitting their votes between two contestants in a verbal fight?). From my limited experience in web communities, karma always ends up being: people upvoting when they agree, downvoting when they don't. As I see it, the only good use of karma are 1) to decrease the number of "I agree" comments 2) to isolate obvious trolls. This said, I don't care about Karma. The only feature I wish HN had is a "save button" similar to what reddit has. The reason is that it would allow me to follow up better the destiny of all those guys who come here and ask "rate/review my startup".
    - RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
      >> ... I started tracking my karma a while ago > Geez, you are taking it seriously indeed. Not especially. I just pull my profile page occasionally to see what happens. I am, however, also in the process of building a site that will have some facets in common with this and other sites, so seeing what happens here is in my own interest. For what it's worth, I completely support PG in his continuing efforts to improve things. I appreciate that he will continue to make changes to try to address the problems that arise in a large site, and I realise that not all changes can be made completely openly. It's a difficult problem with no general solutions. Yet. I'd like to think that contributors here will play a part in keeping this site of high-quality, and perhaps finding methods that will work more generally.
sailormoon 17y ago
An attempt to reduce the "swing" as a discussion unfolds, then? Interesting. As someone who often tries to represent/defend the "unpopular" side of a topic, I see this dynamic in action a lot. The graph of my karma accrual over time must look like a yoyo sporadically wielded by someone walking slowly up a gentle slope.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Hehe, funny, just yesterday I was wondering to myself if you did that on purpose, it seems that answer to that one is 'yes'.
  - sailormoon 17y ago
    All in the name of good/elucidating discussion! I already know what I think, and why I think it. By slipping into the "devil's advocate" role once in a while, it forces you to think about your own views again from a different light. I mean, we're mostly white collar upper middle class males here. The cultural overlap is huge. It would be pretty boring, not to mention unchallenging, if I just agreed with everyone all the time ..
jacquesm 17y ago
Your modification actually encourages groupthink. If people are going to be worried that their vote average is going to be negatively impacted by a controversial view then they will simply keep it to themselves.
- netcan 17y ago
  I don't think it's controversial views that make your comment score go down. Popular views definitely have a positive effect, but I don't think it's the biggest factor. My current average is probably a lot higher then usual because I had some relatively early comments on the Google in China thread. Those comments probably got read by 100X or 1000X times as many of my other comments. Most votes are up, not down. The biggest factor (I think) is how many people read it. The second biggest is how many people care. The third is how many agree or otherwise like the comment.
- maxklein 17y ago
  If you are afraid to defend a view because your average karma on some website will fall below a certain level, then you are not the type of person that should be defending views. Say what you believe in. Karma, comment average is unimportant. I rarely vote anyways, so if I ever lost the ability (which I don't think I ever have), I would not care. I'm here to talk, not to vote.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    > If you are afraid to defend a view because your average karma on some website will fall below a certain level, then you are not the type of person that should be defending views. You must be new here :) > Say what you believe in. Karma, comment average is unimportant. Absolutely, but the general case will, at least as long as the leaderboard exists, be the opposite. > I'm here to talk, not to vote. Voting on articles is useful because it gives good stuff more attention. Voting on comments is useful to get rid of the trolls, and it allows people that have limited time to spend to browse HN articles fast to get the good stuff.

by pg 17y ago

icey 17y ago

Would pushing highly turbulent comments further down in the thread accomplish some of what you're going for? In a large thread the arguments would fall to the bottom. I would probably rather read an 8 point comment with 10 ups and 2 downs than one with 110 ups and 102 downs.

gojomo 17y ago
I would prefer the 110/102 comment. If it has that many upvotes, it's probably not rude or uncivil -- just controversial. Disagreement-downvoters have been nudging it down, but someone else always comes along an nudges it up. That makes it more interesting than a crowd-pandering 10/2. (I think the up/down totals might be shown to good effect, not necessarily cluttering the main thread, but on the item detail/reply page.)
- elblanco 17y ago
  Total votes as well as up and down votes are just as interesting a metric to determine interest in a comment or post.

crocowhile 17y ago

I don't understand how was thresholding related to this - at all. RoG was getting more downvotes than average HN user (1.88 vs 2.0). How does inhibiting his power to rate help this "crowd egging" thing you are referring to?

pg 17y ago
It didn't use to be such a problem, say, a year ago, and my theory was that this was largely because there were fewer voters a year ago. Using comment average seemed like the best way to decrease the effective number of voters. But as I said, it didn't work out as well as I'd hoped.
- Freebytes 17y ago
  This is just a wild idea without much thought, but I used it on an old web site I maintained that had social interactions. Perhaps you could make a similar system work by giving a salary of points to members. The longer they remain a member, the more points they get, but at the same time, you could make it so a portion of their points are transferred when they vote. This might encourage point hoarding, though, which was a problem that existed with my prior system. (In actuality, my system gave points for participation (visiting the site with some frequency) and removed points through a 'Karma tax' for not visiting the site, and then people could transfer points to each other.)
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    We use a system that is very close to what you describe on a very large site that I have helped to build and it actually works really well. We're thinking of ways to allow people to turn their karma in to more tangible forms of rewards as well, such as one-shot functionality that you pay for with karma and physical goodies from a 'karma store'.
  - elblanco 17y ago
    There was a similar thread on here regarding abuses of downvoting. One idea was to do the following: 1) Earn points by commenting and submitting. 2) Earn points by being voted up. 3) Spend points by voting someone down. 4) Loose points by being voted down.
RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
I don't think I get many down votes at all. Out of interest I started tracking my karma a while ago to try to detect these sorts of changes and influences. I seem to get very few down votes. The pattern seems to be more that I make a few contributions that are seen and well regarded. They get lots of votes. I make a few contributions that don't get noticed, or that no one likes. They get no votes. And I make a lot of contributions that cross-reference, location duplications, point people to other discussions, and generally try to help tie things up. I do that because my background in online communities is more in wiki technology, where house-keeping is essential. Those many, many contributions get very little attention, and no up votes. The net result is that all the small notes that try to make things better drag my average down. I think the use of the average karma is mis-guided. At least I can see what mine is, as I'm on the leader board.
- crocowhile 17y ago
  >Out of interest I started tracking my karma a while ago Geez, you are taking it seriously indeed. I trust PG when he says using average karma didn't help solving the problem but I don't have an opinion myself simply because I didn't even understand what the problem is exactly (Is it people splitting their votes between two contestants in a verbal fight?). From my limited experience in web communities, karma always ends up being: people upvoting when they agree, downvoting when they don't. As I see it, the only good use of karma are 1) to decrease the number of "I agree" comments 2) to isolate obvious trolls. This said, I don't care about Karma. The only feature I wish HN had is a "save button" similar to what reddit has. The reason is that it would allow me to follow up better the destiny of all those guys who come here and ask "rate/review my startup".
  - RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
    >> ... I started tracking my karma a while ago > Geez, you are taking it seriously indeed. Not especially. I just pull my profile page occasionally to see what happens. I am, however, also in the process of building a site that will have some facets in common with this and other sites, so seeing what happens here is in my own interest. For what it's worth, I completely support PG in his continuing efforts to improve things. I appreciate that he will continue to make changes to try to address the problems that arise in a large site, and I realise that not all changes can be made completely openly. It's a difficult problem with no general solutions. Yet. I'd like to think that contributors here will play a part in keeping this site of high-quality, and perhaps finding methods that will work more generally.

sailormoon 17y ago

An attempt to reduce the "swing" as a discussion unfolds, then? Interesting. As someone who often tries to represent/defend the "unpopular" side of a topic, I see this dynamic in action a lot. The graph of my karma accrual over time must look like a yoyo sporadically wielded by someone walking slowly up a gentle slope.

jacquesm 17y ago
Hehe, funny, just yesterday I was wondering to myself if you did that on purpose, it seems that answer to that one is 'yes'.
- sailormoon 17y ago
  All in the name of good/elucidating discussion! I already know what I think, and why I think it. By slipping into the "devil's advocate" role once in a while, it forces you to think about your own views again from a different light. I mean, we're mostly white collar upper middle class males here. The cultural overlap is huge. It would be pretty boring, not to mention unchallenging, if I just agreed with everyone all the time ..

jacquesm 17y ago

Your modification actually encourages groupthink. If people are going to be worried that their vote average is going to be negatively impacted by a controversial view then they will simply keep it to themselves.

netcan 17y ago
I don't think it's controversial views that make your comment score go down. Popular views definitely have a positive effect, but I don't think it's the biggest factor. My current average is probably a lot higher then usual because I had some relatively early comments on the Google in China thread. Those comments probably got read by 100X or 1000X times as many of my other comments. Most votes are up, not down. The biggest factor (I think) is how many people read it. The second biggest is how many people care. The third is how many agree or otherwise like the comment.
maxklein 17y ago
If you are afraid to defend a view because your average karma on some website will fall below a certain level, then you are not the type of person that should be defending views. Say what you believe in. Karma, comment average is unimportant. I rarely vote anyways, so if I ever lost the ability (which I don't think I ever have), I would not care. I'm here to talk, not to vote.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  > If you are afraid to defend a view because your average karma on some website will fall below a certain level, then you are not the type of person that should be defending views. You must be new here :) > Say what you believe in. Karma, comment average is unimportant. Absolutely, but the general case will, at least as long as the leaderboard exists, be the opposite. > I'm here to talk, not to vote. Voting on articles is useful because it gives good stuff more attention. Voting on comments is useful to get rid of the trolls, and it allows people that have limited time to spend to browse HN articles fast to get the good stuff.