9 ms·

Single course of antibiotics can mess up the gut microbiome for a year

115 points by ra 11y ago

Natsu 11y ago
I simply took a probiotic after being on antibiotics for a couple months and it had a side effect of curing a lot of digestive problems I used to have. So there's that, too. Incidentally, my doctor was the one who advised this. EDIT: The probiotic in my case was capsules of 15B cells of Lactobasillus GG. Marketing copy on the box suggests this is the "most clinically studied probiotic strain" but I'm not able to verify that.
- tghw 11y ago
  My father ended up on months-long rounds of antibiotics and started taking probiotics as a result. He also said it helped some similar digestive problems he's had for years.
  - Jack000 11y ago
    Is there a difference between prescription probiotics vs say probiotic yogurt or over the counter supplements? I've also had digestive problems for years that may have been the result of antibiotics.
    - omarqureshi 11y ago
      In the UK at least, doctors may advise you to take probiotics but do not write you up a prescription for it as it is considered experimental. I'be personally used acidophilus lactobacillus after an oral yeast infection which I got after taking preventative antibiotics (took pretty much everything - azithromycin, flucloxacillin and ciprofloxacin) for a severe bout of reactive arthritis and it seemed to make a difference. However I was still very messed up for at least 6 months.
      - Natsu 11y ago
        That's the same thing they did here. I asked for a brand that other patients had reported success with and ended up with capsules containing 15B cells of Lactobacillus GG.
    - Cheyana 11y ago
      Honestly, I don't think probiotic yogurt really contains as much of the bacteria as you would need to affect your system. I bought two 4-packs of that stuff and ate them over the course of a week as a replacement for the over the counter stuff, just to see if it would help. No effect whatsoever. Went back to the over the counter stuff (Udo's Choice, which is expensive, refrigerated stuff from Whole Foods) and I was right again. Though I have to say, probiotic with 102 billion cells might be pushing it for most. Flora-wise, I felt like I had a whole rainforest coming out of my ass, but it wasn't really a bad experience. It fixed my burning diarrhea after my run of antibiotics.
      - unclebucknasty 11y ago
        >*probiotic with 102 billion cells..." That's the thing that gets me with probiotics/packaging: they list these counts that can vary widely and are sometimes seemingly astronomical. It kind of implies that if some is good, then more is better. I've thought that there is certainly some level at which it's not good for you. Logically, if a certain dosage is produced, then you assume it to have some therapeutic effect. So, adding an order of magnitude to a therapeutic dosage of something wouldn't seem universally harmless.
        undersuit 11y ago
        They list these numbers on yeast packets for brewing too. Much better that your yeast spends as much time as possible fermenting instead of growing and budding. With an initial count and an idea of the age of the batch you can decide if you're going to start the yeast in a small start batch(to prop up their numbers) or just plop the contents in. What I'm trying to get at is a low dosage might mean the little critters take a while to reach a good population, while a high dosage might be what's needed to discourage growth and encourage their reactions.
- Duhck 11y ago
  I actually have had similar problems. In the past when I take antibiotics it fixes my GI problems.
  - Natsu 11y ago
    That is interesting. In my case, I was on two courses of antibiotics (a 7-day course and a 10-day course) during which I did not see improvement or use probiotics. It's only when I started the 30-day course that my doctor told me about probiotics. I started the probiotics at the same time as the 30-day course and saw immediate improvement. Perhaps my problems were caused by a lack of beneficial bacteria while your troubles were caused by some type of infection? Or maybe it was only the 3rd antibiotic that cleared something out of my system?
  - jstelly 11y ago
    There is a condition called Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth that fits this description. There is even an antibiotic that is marketed toward and prescribed for the condition called Xifaxan / rifaximin. Neomycin (another antiobiotic) is also used to treat it. This research lab is studying it and this doctor (Pimentel) has written a book about it: http://www.cedars-sinai.edu/Research/Research-Labs/Pimentel-Lab/ http://www.cedars-sinai.edu/Research/Research-Labs/Pimentel-...
  - XorNot 11y ago
    I've done this as well. A one week course produces a marked improvement.
- evo_9 11y ago
  For about 15 years I have been having a stonyfield organic smoothie for breakfast and within the first month all my random digestive issues cleared up. Other than an occasional stomach bug or bad meal - both pretty rare for me these days - I've had no issues since. http://www.stonyfield.com/products/yogurt/smoothies/strawberry http://www.stonyfield.com/products/yogurt/smoothies/strawber...
- odiroot 11y ago
  I would be surprised if some doctors (or even countries) didn't prescribe probiotics alongside the antibiotics.
- homeslice 11y ago
  So I run a probiotics site...and what that marketing claim means is that that precise strain of Lactobacillus Rhamnosus is the most researched. There are many more studies on the species of probiotic Lactobacillus Rhamnosus as a whole...but for that exact "cousin" of the species, it is likely the most clinically researched probiotic. There's a bit more info on it here: http://probiotics.org/lactobacillus-gg-benefits/ http://probiotics.org/lactobacillus-gg-benefits/
haswell 11y ago
I went through my entire childhood without ever getting sick enough to need antibiotics. Then, I managed to catch strep in my early 20s, and went on a course of antibiotics to take care of it. This is of course purely anecdotal, but the following year was pure hell from a digestive system standpoint, and looking back, I'm pretty sure it was tied to that course of antibiotics. Thankfully, things cleared up on their own, but I'd definitely be looking at probiotics if forced to go on antibiotics again for some reason. Glad to see research on this topic.
- sparkie 11y ago
  Had similar experience. Had allergic reaction to penicillin first prescription, which triggered my full body to come out in itchy hives. Went through 3 courses of different antibiotics until I was fit enough to get out of bed. Had bad guts for a couple of years following, which was usually an alternation between diarrhea and constipation. Sometimes I'd sit on the throne several times a day and no movement, except mucus or eventually, blood, as I'd developed piles. I went on a super high fibre diet, ate as much low calorie food as I could a day to keep things moving. Ate lots of fermented foods, mainly dairy, sauerkraut, cured meats. Eliminated sugar, took up cycling to work to get fit. I've not been ill since, my bowels are moving, and piles are gone. Not the most pleasant story, but thought I'd share it.
  - justboxing 11y ago
    Thanks for sharing your story @sparkie. Doesn't sound like a whole of fun, what you went through. Do you know of any high-fiber low-calorie non-meat, non-diary foods? Also, does the %age of soluble vs insoluble fiber matter, or no?
    - sparkie 11y ago
      Various beans, sweet potatoes, yams, most root vegetables. Sweet potatoes became my favourite food when I realised you could use them as a sugar replacement for many kinds of baking, which made giving up the sugar so much easier. As for % of soluble and insolubale, I've never really paid attention to it. I probably eat far more soluble fiber than insoluble though, if it helps.
justboxing 11y ago
Ask HN: Any proven natural (without meds) ways to "reset" and restore gut flora? Context: I grew up in India and to this day, there is a tendancy by Doctors to prescribe Antibiotics for anything, even cold viruses and non-bacterial illnesses. Erythromycin is 1 such antibiotic that Indian doctors prescribe for things such as the common cold, cough and similar seasonal illnesses. Due to this, I've developed a lot of food allergies and my gut is hosed. So I was wondering if anyone has been able to successfully "reset" their gut and regrow the good bacterial and improve their immune system. Thank you!!
- harigov 11y ago
  Isn't that what probiotics is for?
  - svachalek 11y ago
    In theory. I can't remember the source but I've read that studies have shown some benefits while probiotics or yogurt are going through your system, but no lasting "colonization" of the bacteria. I have an irritable gut and I've never really noticed either yogurt or probiotics having an effect on that in either direction. (Antibiotics really screw it up for a while.)
- aaronbrethorst 11y ago
  Fecal transplants seem to have a high success rate of fixing some gut health issues[1]. I've never tried one, though. I take probiotics on a daily basis, but research is much more scant for them[2]. That said, I notice a marked difference when I stop taking them for a few days. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_bacteriotherapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_bacteriotherapy [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotic#Research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotic#Research
  - Natsu 11y ago
    Odd, my own anecdata is that I took Lactobasillus GG after antibiotics and saw great improvement. But I only seem to need to take it sporadically as a boost after first taking it daily for some weeks on the theory that this would help get a culture established and the rest would be occasional maintenance. Obviously, it's not at all scientific, so I have no idea what might work for others.
hammock 11y ago
What are "probiotics"? How do we know which bacteria are the ones we need, and do all probiotics contain the same cocktail or different strains? Seems like saying "take probiotics" is insufficient.
- Natsu 11y ago
  You're right. I think there was a startup on here that had done a clinical study of some formula of theirs with many specific microbes. In my case, I used a probiotic that contains only Lactobacillus GG (15B cells) and saw improvement after a course of antibiotics. My doctor recommended that when I asked, but said that it wasn't a prescription, just that he'd heard good reports from his patients. For myself, I took them regularly for a couple weeks afterwards, then sporadically after that as constant usage doesn't appear to be required, at least for me.
  - mangeletti 11y ago
    If anyone knows the name of that startup, please do tell.
    - Natsu 11y ago
      Searching suggests it might be this story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8456128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8456128
- jarmitage 11y ago
  This is a fairly decent introduction to the topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mioR_WrkRaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mioR_WrkRaU This book is also doing the rounds but I'm not sure how good it actually is http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Maker-Microbes-Protect-Brain%C2%96/dp/0316380105/ http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Maker-Microbes-Protect-Brain%C2%...
refurb 11y ago
I think saying that antibiotics "mess up" your gut microbiome is making a lot of assumptions. Your biome changes if your diet changes. Saying that "any change" is "messing things up" is something I don't think has been proven. Of course, there are risks of using antibiotic like C. difficile infections, but saying more than that is stretching the truth.
- swsieber 11y ago
  I don't think that there are that many assumptions. The core assumption is this: having a more diverse gut microbiome is healthier.
  - refurb 11y ago
    Do you have any sources to back that up? I don't see anywhere in the article that it says the diversity in the gut was reduced. It says it was altered. Also, if you change your diet, your diversity is also potentially reduced. Is that bad too?
    - swsieber 11y ago
      It would seem I was influenced by an earlier post today[1]. That post talked about research indicating that microbiome diversity was important/healthy. While article of this post mentions that the linked study showed a change in composition and diversity, the abstract itself just mentioned a reduction of a particular beneficial group of bacteria: Additionally, metagenomic predictions based on 16S rRNA gene amplicon data were performed using PICRUSt. The salivary microbiome was found to be significantly more robust, whereas the antibiotics negatively affected the fecal microbiome: in particular, health-associated butyrate-producing species became strongly underrepresented.[3] Which I guess makes the assumption even simpler: greatly reducing a group of healthy bacteria from your gut for a while qualifies as messing it up. Also the earlier article I read[3] does in fact posit that a reduction of diversity through diet change is in fact bad. Of course there is still a debate about the truthfulness and magnitude of that statement. [1][3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10552477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10552477 [2] http://mbio.asm.org/content/6/6/e01693-15.full.pdf+html http://mbio.asm.org/content/6/6/e01693-15.full.pdf+html [iFrame + PDF] Edit: Italicized the quote, clarity
aschearer 11y ago
Since there's so much interest in gut biomes you may be interested in learning that what you eat greatly influences your biome. A vegan diet has been shown to substantially change your flora [1] in as little as a day [2]. I also found this video on the role of fiber, our gut flora, and our immune system interesting [3]. [1]: http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v66/n1/full/ejcn2011141a.html http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v66/n1/full/ejcn2011141a.... [2]: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7484/full/nature12820.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7484/full/nature1... [3]: http://nutritionfacts.org/video/prebiotics-tending-our-inner-garden/ http://nutritionfacts.org/video/prebiotics-tending-our-inner...
- justboxing 11y ago
  Thanks, I am a recently turned vegan. I can't say I have experienced the change in "as little as a day". I've been a lifelong lacto-vegetarian (like most indian people) and recently dropped diary (last 2 years).
  - unmole 11y ago
    > I've been a lifelong lacto-vegetarian (like most indian people) Nitpick: Most Indians are NOT vegetarians, less than a third are. http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/the-food-habits-of-a-nation/article3089973.ece http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/the-food-habits-of-a-na...
  - mnkc 11y ago
    SpellingNazi nitpick: Pick up the diary, and drop the dairy—if you must.
- schoen 11y ago
  It's important for vegans and advocates of veganism (like myself) to be cautious and intellectually honest about possible health benefits of a vegan diet. I'm particularly thinking about things like how John Robbins used to do it, where he threw out page after page of correlations between populations eating animal protein and populations suffering disease burdens. That may have persuaded some people, but there are so many other factors (even just dietary factors) that could have accounted for the correlations! The gut biome topic is hot now, but our understanding of it is so new and so limited that it's going to take a while to be confident about what would be a "good" or "healthy" biome in particular ways. It's definitely easy to change it, but still kind of unclear about how to know when particular changes can reasonably be called good or bad or beneficial or harmful (with particular counterexamples like clostridium difficile infection -- that seems bad).
sshillo 11y ago
I wonder what effects a night of drinking does. Yagerbombs and beer pong, probably not great for the gut.
hippich 11y ago
I was taking probiotic [1] to fix stomach issues after a course of antibiotics. Certainly felt better this time. [1] http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L7YD9UG http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L7YD9UG
fiatjaf 11y ago
How do you know when it is "necessary" to take antibiotics?
- DanBC 11y ago
  There's a health campaign in England you might be interested in: https://antibioticguardian.com/ https://antibioticguardian.com/ But when a doctor prescribes a medication a useful question (no matter what the medication) is "What happens if I don't take it? What happens if we just watch and wait?"
  - fiatjaf 11y ago
    Thank you for the helpful answer.
- bautez 11y ago
  Typically your labs and vitals will tell you if antibiotics are indicated. Things like increased WBC, lactic acid, hypotension, tachycardia etc. Blood cultures, too.
ryangittins 11y ago
"Mess up" sounds like a pretty loaded term to me. It sounds like "change" would be a more appropriate word, but the headline wouldn't be able to be skimmed over and then passed along to friends quite so easily.
sunsu 11y ago
If anyone is interested in a good probiotic with a lot of solid science behind it, you should definitely check out http://www.generalbiotics.com http://www.generalbiotics.com It was created by the guys behind the NSF funded Human Biome project. It's excellent and contains over 100 strains (not just a few like most probiotic).

115 points by ra 11y ago

Natsu 11y ago

I simply took a probiotic after being on antibiotics for a couple months and it had a side effect of curing a lot of digestive problems I used to have. So there's that, too. Incidentally, my doctor was the one who advised this. EDIT: The probiotic in my case was capsules of 15B cells of Lactobasillus GG. Marketing copy on the box suggests this is the "most clinically studied probiotic strain" but I'm not able to verify that.

tghw 11y ago
My father ended up on months-long rounds of antibiotics and started taking probiotics as a result. He also said it helped some similar digestive problems he's had for years.
- Jack000 11y ago
  Is there a difference between prescription probiotics vs say probiotic yogurt or over the counter supplements? I've also had digestive problems for years that may have been the result of antibiotics.
  - omarqureshi 11y ago
    In the UK at least, doctors may advise you to take probiotics but do not write you up a prescription for it as it is considered experimental. I'be personally used acidophilus lactobacillus after an oral yeast infection which I got after taking preventative antibiotics (took pretty much everything - azithromycin, flucloxacillin and ciprofloxacin) for a severe bout of reactive arthritis and it seemed to make a difference. However I was still very messed up for at least 6 months.
    - Natsu 11y ago
      That's the same thing they did here. I asked for a brand that other patients had reported success with and ended up with capsules containing 15B cells of Lactobacillus GG.
  - Cheyana 11y ago
    Honestly, I don't think probiotic yogurt really contains as much of the bacteria as you would need to affect your system. I bought two 4-packs of that stuff and ate them over the course of a week as a replacement for the over the counter stuff, just to see if it would help. No effect whatsoever. Went back to the over the counter stuff (Udo's Choice, which is expensive, refrigerated stuff from Whole Foods) and I was right again. Though I have to say, probiotic with 102 billion cells might be pushing it for most. Flora-wise, I felt like I had a whole rainforest coming out of my ass, but it wasn't really a bad experience. It fixed my burning diarrhea after my run of antibiotics.
    - unclebucknasty 11y ago
      >*probiotic with 102 billion cells..." That's the thing that gets me with probiotics/packaging: they list these counts that can vary widely and are sometimes seemingly astronomical. It kind of implies that if some is good, then more is better. I've thought that there is certainly some level at which it's not good for you. Logically, if a certain dosage is produced, then you assume it to have some therapeutic effect. So, adding an order of magnitude to a therapeutic dosage of something wouldn't seem universally harmless.
      - undersuit 11y ago
        They list these numbers on yeast packets for brewing too. Much better that your yeast spends as much time as possible fermenting instead of growing and budding. With an initial count and an idea of the age of the batch you can decide if you're going to start the yeast in a small start batch(to prop up their numbers) or just plop the contents in. What I'm trying to get at is a low dosage might mean the little critters take a while to reach a good population, while a high dosage might be what's needed to discourage growth and encourage their reactions.
Duhck 11y ago
I actually have had similar problems. In the past when I take antibiotics it fixes my GI problems.
- Natsu 11y ago
  That is interesting. In my case, I was on two courses of antibiotics (a 7-day course and a 10-day course) during which I did not see improvement or use probiotics. It's only when I started the 30-day course that my doctor told me about probiotics. I started the probiotics at the same time as the 30-day course and saw immediate improvement. Perhaps my problems were caused by a lack of beneficial bacteria while your troubles were caused by some type of infection? Or maybe it was only the 3rd antibiotic that cleared something out of my system?
- jstelly 11y ago
  There is a condition called Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth that fits this description. There is even an antibiotic that is marketed toward and prescribed for the condition called Xifaxan / rifaximin. Neomycin (another antiobiotic) is also used to treat it. This research lab is studying it and this doctor (Pimentel) has written a book about it: http://www.cedars-sinai.edu/Research/Research-Labs/Pimentel-Lab/ http://www.cedars-sinai.edu/Research/Research-Labs/Pimentel-...
- XorNot 11y ago
  I've done this as well. A one week course produces a marked improvement.
evo_9 11y ago
For about 15 years I have been having a stonyfield organic smoothie for breakfast and within the first month all my random digestive issues cleared up. Other than an occasional stomach bug or bad meal - both pretty rare for me these days - I've had no issues since. http://www.stonyfield.com/products/yogurt/smoothies/strawberry http://www.stonyfield.com/products/yogurt/smoothies/strawber...
odiroot 11y ago
I would be surprised if some doctors (or even countries) didn't prescribe probiotics alongside the antibiotics.
homeslice 11y ago
So I run a probiotics site...and what that marketing claim means is that that precise strain of Lactobacillus Rhamnosus is the most researched. There are many more studies on the species of probiotic Lactobacillus Rhamnosus as a whole...but for that exact "cousin" of the species, it is likely the most clinically researched probiotic. There's a bit more info on it here: http://probiotics.org/lactobacillus-gg-benefits/ http://probiotics.org/lactobacillus-gg-benefits/

haswell 11y ago

I went through my entire childhood without ever getting sick enough to need antibiotics. Then, I managed to catch strep in my early 20s, and went on a course of antibiotics to take care of it. This is of course purely anecdotal, but the following year was pure hell from a digestive system standpoint, and looking back, I'm pretty sure it was tied to that course of antibiotics. Thankfully, things cleared up on their own, but I'd definitely be looking at probiotics if forced to go on antibiotics again for some reason. Glad to see research on this topic.

sparkie 11y ago
Had similar experience. Had allergic reaction to penicillin first prescription, which triggered my full body to come out in itchy hives. Went through 3 courses of different antibiotics until I was fit enough to get out of bed. Had bad guts for a couple of years following, which was usually an alternation between diarrhea and constipation. Sometimes I'd sit on the throne several times a day and no movement, except mucus or eventually, blood, as I'd developed piles. I went on a super high fibre diet, ate as much low calorie food as I could a day to keep things moving. Ate lots of fermented foods, mainly dairy, sauerkraut, cured meats. Eliminated sugar, took up cycling to work to get fit. I've not been ill since, my bowels are moving, and piles are gone. Not the most pleasant story, but thought I'd share it.
- justboxing 11y ago
  Thanks for sharing your story @sparkie. Doesn't sound like a whole of fun, what you went through. Do you know of any high-fiber low-calorie non-meat, non-diary foods? Also, does the %age of soluble vs insoluble fiber matter, or no?
  - sparkie 11y ago
    Various beans, sweet potatoes, yams, most root vegetables. Sweet potatoes became my favourite food when I realised you could use them as a sugar replacement for many kinds of baking, which made giving up the sugar so much easier. As for % of soluble and insolubale, I've never really paid attention to it. I probably eat far more soluble fiber than insoluble though, if it helps.

justboxing 11y ago

Ask HN: Any proven natural (without meds) ways to "reset" and restore gut flora? Context: I grew up in India and to this day, there is a tendancy by Doctors to prescribe Antibiotics for anything, even cold viruses and non-bacterial illnesses. Erythromycin is 1 such antibiotic that Indian doctors prescribe for things such as the common cold, cough and similar seasonal illnesses. Due to this, I've developed a lot of food allergies and my gut is hosed. So I was wondering if anyone has been able to successfully "reset" their gut and regrow the good bacterial and improve their immune system. Thank you!!

harigov 11y ago
Isn't that what probiotics is for?
- svachalek 11y ago
  In theory. I can't remember the source but I've read that studies have shown some benefits while probiotics or yogurt are going through your system, but no lasting "colonization" of the bacteria. I have an irritable gut and I've never really noticed either yogurt or probiotics having an effect on that in either direction. (Antibiotics really screw it up for a while.)
aaronbrethorst 11y ago
Fecal transplants seem to have a high success rate of fixing some gut health issues[1]. I've never tried one, though. I take probiotics on a daily basis, but research is much more scant for them[2]. That said, I notice a marked difference when I stop taking them for a few days. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_bacteriotherapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_bacteriotherapy [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotic#Research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotic#Research
- Natsu 11y ago
  Odd, my own anecdata is that I took Lactobasillus GG after antibiotics and saw great improvement. But I only seem to need to take it sporadically as a boost after first taking it daily for some weeks on the theory that this would help get a culture established and the rest would be occasional maintenance. Obviously, it's not at all scientific, so I have no idea what might work for others.

hammock 11y ago

What are "probiotics"? How do we know which bacteria are the ones we need, and do all probiotics contain the same cocktail or different strains? Seems like saying "take probiotics" is insufficient.

Natsu 11y ago
You're right. I think there was a startup on here that had done a clinical study of some formula of theirs with many specific microbes. In my case, I used a probiotic that contains only Lactobacillus GG (15B cells) and saw improvement after a course of antibiotics. My doctor recommended that when I asked, but said that it wasn't a prescription, just that he'd heard good reports from his patients. For myself, I took them regularly for a couple weeks afterwards, then sporadically after that as constant usage doesn't appear to be required, at least for me.
- mangeletti 11y ago
  If anyone knows the name of that startup, please do tell.
  - Natsu 11y ago
    Searching suggests it might be this story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8456128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8456128
jarmitage 11y ago
This is a fairly decent introduction to the topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mioR_WrkRaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mioR_WrkRaU This book is also doing the rounds but I'm not sure how good it actually is http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Maker-Microbes-Protect-Brain%C2%96/dp/0316380105/ http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Maker-Microbes-Protect-Brain%C2%...

refurb 11y ago

I think saying that antibiotics "mess up" your gut microbiome is making a lot of assumptions. Your biome changes if your diet changes. Saying that "any change" is "messing things up" is something I don't think has been proven. Of course, there are risks of using antibiotic like C. difficile infections, but saying more than that is stretching the truth.

swsieber 11y ago
I don't think that there are that many assumptions. The core assumption is this: having a more diverse gut microbiome is healthier.
- refurb 11y ago
  Do you have any sources to back that up? I don't see anywhere in the article that it says the diversity in the gut was reduced. It says it was altered. Also, if you change your diet, your diversity is also potentially reduced. Is that bad too?
  - swsieber 11y ago
    It would seem I was influenced by an earlier post today[1]. That post talked about research indicating that microbiome diversity was important/healthy. While article of this post mentions that the linked study showed a change in composition and diversity, the abstract itself just mentioned a reduction of a particular beneficial group of bacteria: Additionally, metagenomic predictions based on 16S rRNA gene amplicon data were performed using PICRUSt. The salivary microbiome was found to be significantly more robust, whereas the antibiotics negatively affected the fecal microbiome: in particular, health-associated butyrate-producing species became strongly underrepresented.[3] Which I guess makes the assumption even simpler: greatly reducing a group of healthy bacteria from your gut for a while qualifies as messing it up. Also the earlier article I read[3] does in fact posit that a reduction of diversity through diet change is in fact bad. Of course there is still a debate about the truthfulness and magnitude of that statement. [1][3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10552477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10552477 [2] http://mbio.asm.org/content/6/6/e01693-15.full.pdf+html http://mbio.asm.org/content/6/6/e01693-15.full.pdf+html [iFrame + PDF] Edit: Italicized the quote, clarity

aschearer 11y ago

Since there's so much interest in gut biomes you may be interested in learning that what you eat greatly influences your biome. A vegan diet has been shown to substantially change your flora [1] in as little as a day [2]. I also found this video on the role of fiber, our gut flora, and our immune system interesting [3]. [1]: http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v66/n1/full/ejcn2011141a.html http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v66/n1/full/ejcn2011141a.... [2]: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7484/full/nature12820.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7484/full/nature1... [3]: http://nutritionfacts.org/video/prebiotics-tending-our-inner-garden/ http://nutritionfacts.org/video/prebiotics-tending-our-inner...

justboxing 11y ago
Thanks, I am a recently turned vegan. I can't say I have experienced the change in "as little as a day". I've been a lifelong lacto-vegetarian (like most indian people) and recently dropped diary (last 2 years).
- unmole 11y ago
  > I've been a lifelong lacto-vegetarian (like most indian people) Nitpick: Most Indians are NOT vegetarians, less than a third are. http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/the-food-habits-of-a-nation/article3089973.ece http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/the-food-habits-of-a-na...
- mnkc 11y ago
  SpellingNazi nitpick: Pick up the diary, and drop the dairy—if you must.
schoen 11y ago
It's important for vegans and advocates of veganism (like myself) to be cautious and intellectually honest about possible health benefits of a vegan diet. I'm particularly thinking about things like how John Robbins used to do it, where he threw out page after page of correlations between populations eating animal protein and populations suffering disease burdens. That may have persuaded some people, but there are so many other factors (even just dietary factors) that could have accounted for the correlations! The gut biome topic is hot now, but our understanding of it is so new and so limited that it's going to take a while to be confident about what would be a "good" or "healthy" biome in particular ways. It's definitely easy to change it, but still kind of unclear about how to know when particular changes can reasonably be called good or bad or beneficial or harmful (with particular counterexamples like clostridium difficile infection -- that seems bad).

sshillo 11y ago

I wonder what effects a night of drinking does. Yagerbombs and beer pong, probably not great for the gut.

hippich 11y ago

I was taking probiotic [1] to fix stomach issues after a course of antibiotics. Certainly felt better this time. [1] http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L7YD9UG http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L7YD9UG

fiatjaf 11y ago

How do you know when it is "necessary" to take antibiotics?

DanBC 11y ago
There's a health campaign in England you might be interested in: https://antibioticguardian.com/ https://antibioticguardian.com/ But when a doctor prescribes a medication a useful question (no matter what the medication) is "What happens if I don't take it? What happens if we just watch and wait?"
- fiatjaf 11y ago
  Thank you for the helpful answer.
bautez 11y ago
Typically your labs and vitals will tell you if antibiotics are indicated. Things like increased WBC, lactic acid, hypotension, tachycardia etc. Blood cultures, too.

ryangittins 11y ago

"Mess up" sounds like a pretty loaded term to me. It sounds like "change" would be a more appropriate word, but the headline wouldn't be able to be skimmed over and then passed along to friends quite so easily.

sunsu 11y ago

If anyone is interested in a good probiotic with a lot of solid science behind it, you should definitely check out http://www.generalbiotics.com http://www.generalbiotics.com It was created by the guys behind the NSF funded Human Biome project. It's excellent and contains over 100 strains (not just a few like most probiotic).