4 ms·

Fwiw I think people who downvote you are reacting to the tone of your writing Sentences like "I'm not going to walk away without explanation." sound (mildly) p

Fwiw I think people who downvote you are reacting to the tone of your writing Sentences like "I'm not going to walk away without explanation." sound (mildly) pompous and priggish. You could cut all the dramatics and posturing from your post, state the facts (as you see them) plainly, provide any supporting data and ask a polite question about the effect you want and what you can do to help. Sentences like "When people stop being my customers I'd like to know why." and "Think of this as customer feedback." have an assumption built in which may not hold. "user" != "customer".

RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
Thanks for the feedback - appreciated. I could've taken more time to explain that more clearly, and it probably would've sounded better, but I really do have other things to do. The simple facts are that my votes don't count, I don't know why, I thought I was a useful contributor, I resent the implicit message that my votes aren't valued, and I think it's rude to walk away from a service because of a perceived flaw without giving feedback. I'd be interested to know what people think the difference is between "user" and "customer." Perhaps a "user" simply doesn't pay in any way, whereas a "customer" does. I prefer to be a "customer." In return for the contacts I've made and information gained, I'm happy to repay by taking time to add value. Most companies try to turn users into customers. I'm just pointing out that the current situation has turned a customer into a user, and that might not be what was intended.
- lutorm 17y ago
  Maybe it's your presumption of malice that's rubbing people the wrong way. Instead of immediately thinking that you are under attack, perhaps a presumption of malfunction would have shown higher regard for people's intentions. (But then again, given that this is HN, maybe assuming their code isn't bug free is a worse insult? ;-)
  - RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
    As I tried to point out (and obviously failed - you're not the first person to suggest this) the fact that others have in the past said that they have lost the right to vote, and the fact that PG says he tinkers with the question of whether specific votes count, make me believe it's not a bug or other unintended feature. (ADDED IN EDIT: PG has said: "I'm experimenting with changes to the code that decides which votes count.") And in some sense I'm content that for some reason and in some way my votes have been deemed irrelevant. I'd just like to know why. More than that, I spend time thinking before I vote. If my vote has no effect, I won't waste that time.
    - scott_s 17y ago
      I don't think the intention is "specific votes" as in an editor cherry-picked particular users to ignore. Rather, I think they are trying to code logic that will recognize patterns of behavior and ignore users that exhibit that behavior. That is tricky stuff, and it's going to get a lot of false positives until they settle on an acceptable set of rules. You're really not giving PG and whoever else develops the HN code the benefit of the doubt.
      - RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
        > I don't think the intention is "specific votes" as in an > editor cherry-picked particular users to ignore. I'm sure that's true. They write complex code that tries to identify deprecated behaviours, and then take action based on that. No doubt I could've expressed that point to better reflect what I think. I will look at going back and editing the phrasing - thank you. > Rather, I think they are trying to code logic that will > recognize patterns of behavior and ignore users that > exhibit that behavior. Most likely, yes. > That is tricky stuff, and it's going to get a lot of false > positives until they settle on an acceptable set of rules. Yes, and no. Yes it's tricky, and yes there will be false positives, but the rate depends on how aggressive they try to be. > You're really not giving PG and whoever else develops the > HN code the benefit of the doubt. I suspect I'm giving them more credit than you give me credit for. This is the sort of thing at which I earn my living, and I really do know how hard automated behavioural analysis can be. I also know that behaviour modification works best when the reinforcement is strongly attached to the behaviour. The problem here is that I have no idea what I've done to have my voting privileges revoked, and that is counter-productive.

RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago

Thanks for the feedback - appreciated. I could've taken more time to explain that more clearly, and it probably would've sounded better, but I really do have other things to do. The simple facts are that my votes don't count, I don't know why, I thought I was a useful contributor, I resent the implicit message that my votes aren't valued, and I think it's rude to walk away from a service because of a perceived flaw without giving feedback. I'd be interested to know what people think the difference is between "user" and "customer." Perhaps a "user" simply doesn't pay in any way, whereas a "customer" does. I prefer to be a "customer." In return for the contacts I've made and information gained, I'm happy to repay by taking time to add value. Most companies try to turn users into customers. I'm just pointing out that the current situation has turned a customer into a user, and that might not be what was intended.

lutorm 17y ago
Maybe it's your presumption of malice that's rubbing people the wrong way. Instead of immediately thinking that you are under attack, perhaps a presumption of malfunction would have shown higher regard for people's intentions. (But then again, given that this is HN, maybe assuming their code isn't bug free is a worse insult? ;-)
- RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
  As I tried to point out (and obviously failed - you're not the first person to suggest this) the fact that others have in the past said that they have lost the right to vote, and the fact that PG says he tinkers with the question of whether specific votes count, make me believe it's not a bug or other unintended feature. (ADDED IN EDIT: PG has said: "I'm experimenting with changes to the code that decides which votes count.") And in some sense I'm content that for some reason and in some way my votes have been deemed irrelevant. I'd just like to know why. More than that, I spend time thinking before I vote. If my vote has no effect, I won't waste that time.
  - scott_s 17y ago
    I don't think the intention is "specific votes" as in an editor cherry-picked particular users to ignore. Rather, I think they are trying to code logic that will recognize patterns of behavior and ignore users that exhibit that behavior. That is tricky stuff, and it's going to get a lot of false positives until they settle on an acceptable set of rules. You're really not giving PG and whoever else develops the HN code the benefit of the doubt.
    - RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
      > I don't think the intention is "specific votes" as in an > editor cherry-picked particular users to ignore. I'm sure that's true. They write complex code that tries to identify deprecated behaviours, and then take action based on that. No doubt I could've expressed that point to better reflect what I think. I will look at going back and editing the phrasing - thank you. > Rather, I think they are trying to code logic that will > recognize patterns of behavior and ignore users that > exhibit that behavior. Most likely, yes. > That is tricky stuff, and it's going to get a lot of false > positives until they settle on an acceptable set of rules. Yes, and no. Yes it's tricky, and yes there will be false positives, but the rate depends on how aggressive they try to be. > You're really not giving PG and whoever else develops the > HN code the benefit of the doubt. I suspect I'm giving them more credit than you give me credit for. This is the sort of thing at which I earn my living, and I really do know how hard automated behavioural analysis can be. I also know that behaviour modification works best when the reinforcement is strongly attached to the behaviour. The problem here is that I have no idea what I've done to have my voting privileges revoked, and that is counter-productive.