4 ms·

I'm not an expert, but there is some evidence that nicotine alone can lead to heart disease.

by muaddirac 11y ago

tptacek 11y ago
Caffeine also has CVD impact, as well as GI and mental health.
- Alupis 11y ago
  The difference between caffeine and the chems in e-cigs is that caffeine consumption typically only involves the user. Where-as e-cig consumption too often involves the user, plus all those stuck in the same room/elevator. If this were a nicotine patch, it wouldn't be such an issue.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    E-cigs do not dose bystanders with nicotine.
    - Alupis 11y ago
      They do, plus other chemicals either in the liquid vapor, or created by the heat in the vape.[1][2][3] [1] http://www.medicaldaily.com/secondhand-smoke-goes-electronic-damaging-free-radicals-e-cig-vapor-320740 http://www.medicaldaily.com/secondhand-smoke-goes-electronic... [2] http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/281762.php http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/281762.php [3] http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20140903/e-cigarette-vapor-may-be-less-toxic-than-tobacco-smoke-study http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20140903/e-cigar...
      - tptacek 11y ago
        None of these links suggest that bystanders are dosed with nicotine by e-cigarettes.
        Alupis 11y ago
        I'm not sure if you are purposefully being obtuse, because you appear to be making the argument that e-cigarettes are "safe" for the user plus those around - which is absurd (as evidenced in the links). Your follow-up will say something to the effect that you specifically said "dosed with nicotine", and yes that phrase is not present in any text I can locate. That does not somehow mean we can jump to a logical conclusion they are "safe" (yes, "safer" is a better term, but that shows disregard for people's health who have explicitly chosen not to participate). Furthermore, since many e-cigarette users insist on using them indoors, it's inevitable other bystanders will inhale their "second hand vape", and thus be exposed to the health risks associated.
        tptacek 11y ago
        Please don't call me names. The thread is right there for everyone to see. Someone said nicotine has CVD impact. I said, so does caffeine. You responded that e-cigs impact bystanders. Well, they don't impact bystanders with CVD impact from nicotine, which is what the thread's about. You then say, "they do", and provide 3 links, none of which support that argument with evidence. I point that out. You then flee to the abstraction of whether e-cigs are "safe".
        Alupis 11y ago
        You are selectively using parts of the thread to your advantage, and skipping over the rest. The thread began with someone making a claim that nicotine usage is linked to CVD. You brought up that so is caffeine (which is a distraction from the core argument). To which I countered with the glaring difference between nicotine and caffeine consumption. You then attempted to make an argument that e-cigs somehow don't effect bystanders (nicotine et al), which is absurd as shown in the links provided. > Please don't call me names. I admit, that was a little too far. I meant to say your single sentence arguments are deliberately obtuse and misleading.
VLM 11y ago
Its unclear and all over the map. There's a famous study from '97 in direct opposition based on nicotine gums and patches and I quote: "Clinical trials of NRT in patients with underlying, stable coronary disease suggest that nicotine does not increase cardiovascular risk" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9180099 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9180099 On the other hand there's something in e-cig fluid aside from nicotine that seems to be a cancer risk "E-cigarette vapor, both with and without nicotine, is cytotoxic to epithelial cell lines and is a DNA strand break-inducing agent. Further assessment of the potential carcinogenic effects of e-cigarette vapor is urgently needed." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26547127 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26547127 To some extent its like arguing with people about a paleo diet. Twinkies may or may not be good or bad for you, none the less removing twinkies from your diet totally utterly freaks some people out. Likewise it seems highly likely that not using ecigs will have no negative health effects, but people will freak out if you suggest not vapeing. In terms of recreational activities, its probably not as bad as numerous activities like being exposed to fumes from drying paint, stripping and refinishing of furniture, etc. On the other hand its likely far more dangerous than watching TV or reading HN articles.

I'm not an expert, but there is some evidence that nicotine alone can lead to heart disease.

tptacek 11y ago

Caffeine also has CVD impact, as well as GI and mental health.

Alupis 11y ago
The difference between caffeine and the chems in e-cigs is that caffeine consumption typically only involves the user. Where-as e-cig consumption too often involves the user, plus all those stuck in the same room/elevator. If this were a nicotine patch, it wouldn't be such an issue.
- tptacek 11y ago
  E-cigs do not dose bystanders with nicotine.
  - Alupis 11y ago
    They do, plus other chemicals either in the liquid vapor, or created by the heat in the vape.[1][2][3] [1] http://www.medicaldaily.com/secondhand-smoke-goes-electronic-damaging-free-radicals-e-cig-vapor-320740 http://www.medicaldaily.com/secondhand-smoke-goes-electronic... [2] http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/281762.php http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/281762.php [3] http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20140903/e-cigarette-vapor-may-be-less-toxic-than-tobacco-smoke-study http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20140903/e-cigar...
    - tptacek 11y ago
      None of these links suggest that bystanders are dosed with nicotine by e-cigarettes.
      - Alupis 11y ago
        I'm not sure if you are purposefully being obtuse, because you appear to be making the argument that e-cigarettes are "safe" for the user plus those around - which is absurd (as evidenced in the links). Your follow-up will say something to the effect that you specifically said "dosed with nicotine", and yes that phrase is not present in any text I can locate. That does not somehow mean we can jump to a logical conclusion they are "safe" (yes, "safer" is a better term, but that shows disregard for people's health who have explicitly chosen not to participate). Furthermore, since many e-cigarette users insist on using them indoors, it's inevitable other bystanders will inhale their "second hand vape", and thus be exposed to the health risks associated.
        tptacek 11y ago
        Please don't call me names. The thread is right there for everyone to see. Someone said nicotine has CVD impact. I said, so does caffeine. You responded that e-cigs impact bystanders. Well, they don't impact bystanders with CVD impact from nicotine, which is what the thread's about. You then say, "they do", and provide 3 links, none of which support that argument with evidence. I point that out. You then flee to the abstraction of whether e-cigs are "safe".
        Alupis 11y ago
        You are selectively using parts of the thread to your advantage, and skipping over the rest. The thread began with someone making a claim that nicotine usage is linked to CVD. You brought up that so is caffeine (which is a distraction from the core argument). To which I countered with the glaring difference between nicotine and caffeine consumption. You then attempted to make an argument that e-cigs somehow don't effect bystanders (nicotine et al), which is absurd as shown in the links provided. > Please don't call me names. I admit, that was a little too far. I meant to say your single sentence arguments are deliberately obtuse and misleading.

VLM 11y ago

Its unclear and all over the map. There's a famous study from '97 in direct opposition based on nicotine gums and patches and I quote: "Clinical trials of NRT in patients with underlying, stable coronary disease suggest that nicotine does not increase cardiovascular risk" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9180099 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9180099 On the other hand there's something in e-cig fluid aside from nicotine that seems to be a cancer risk "E-cigarette vapor, both with and without nicotine, is cytotoxic to epithelial cell lines and is a DNA strand break-inducing agent. Further assessment of the potential carcinogenic effects of e-cigarette vapor is urgently needed." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26547127 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26547127 To some extent its like arguing with people about a paleo diet. Twinkies may or may not be good or bad for you, none the less removing twinkies from your diet totally utterly freaks some people out. Likewise it seems highly likely that not using ecigs will have no negative health effects, but people will freak out if you suggest not vapeing. In terms of recreational activities, its probably not as bad as numerous activities like being exposed to fumes from drying paint, stripping and refinishing of furniture, etc. On the other hand its likely far more dangerous than watching TV or reading HN articles.