6 ms·

I'd fully support criminal charges. If I jammed public spectrum in order to profit, I'd be in prison.

by facetube 11y ago

mikeash 11y ago
They're getting fined minutes of revenue, that's practically the same as prison!
- bicknergseng 11y ago
  Approximately 24.67 minutes for what it's worth. Marriott made > $12 billion last year and was fined $600k. I'm curious how much revenue the wifi fees bring in and whether that fine even makes a dent in income from that alone.
  - facetube 11y ago
    The article says they were charging meetings up to $30,000 for internet access alone. I'd guess it was probably profitable.
  - saurik 11y ago
    ... revenue is absolutely meaningless in this conversation. You should be looking at profit. It doesn't matter what Marriott charges, it matters what they make, and saying they "made > $12 billion" is totally false: they made at the high end something like $2 billion (which is still high enough that you could have used those numbers as an honest ratio instead of distorting the discussion by looking at revenue).
    - wpietri 11y ago
      I'd say revenue's probably the better number. Profit varies by quite a number of factors, but revenue is a reasonably reliable yardstick for the size of the business. For example, consider Amazon, who didn't turn a profit for decades: http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/future_tense/2013/10/25/amazon_earnings_jeff_bezos_is_like_king_midas_in_reverse_chart/1382736441.jpg.CROP.promo-mediumlarge.jpg http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/future_tense/20... Also, maybe you could tone down the drama? Even if you were right, which you aren't, the comment you're replying to was clearly well meant.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      Nobody uses profit when determining the appropriate fines for an individual. A court doesn't look at an offender making $100,000/year and say, well, they're only saving $5/month, so we'll only fine them $60. If we're talking about the discrepancy between punishments for individuals and punishments for companies, then we should absolutely be looking at revenues, not profits. Or alternately, punishments for individuals should look at savings, not income.
hackuser 11y ago
> If I jammed public spectrum in order to profit, I'd be in prison. Is this true? Can someone cite examples of this happening?
- mikeash 11y ago
  Here's a fellow who spent 15 months in prison for jamming ham radio, so not even for profit: http://www.eham.net/articles/3908 http://www.eham.net/articles/3908 This guy got seven years, but he was interfering with public safety radios operated by police and the like, so that's not the same: http://www.eham.net/articles/14858 http://www.eham.net/articles/14858 Looking at other convictions, it seems that the more usual punishment is arrest, probation, and a massive fine. Even compared to that, fining a big hotel $600,000 is a joke.
  - newjersey 11y ago
    I want the board to go to jail, not some low level janitor. Or do we only go as high as the paper trail takes us? This lets companies erect firewalls and appear innocent like the vw CEO...
    - AnkhMorporkian 11y ago
      The alternative is imprisoning people without evidence. I'll take guilty people going free anyday.
      - Karunamon 11y ago
        Or, tweaking the law along the lines that corporate executives are vicariously liable for the job related misdeeds of their underlings, if it can be shown they did or should have known about the goings on and did nothing to stop it. Suddenly, there will be a lot more care about ethical behavior..
        newjersey 11y ago
        Owners and board members of companies should be liable not just for the action of their employees but also the actions of their subcontractors. Otherwise, we will have situations like the one John Oliver mocked in the North Dakota petroleum industry. http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/10/12/john_oliver_exposes_the_dark_side_of_north_dakota_s_oil_boom_on_last_week.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/10/12/john_oliver_e...
Shivetya 11y ago
Well the odd thing is, in prison where you are not permitted a cell phone if you "had" one the authorities are not permitted to jam it.
- noobermin 11y ago
  They could take it since you're a prisoner.
rayiner 11y ago
Only if you jammed US government communications or satellite communications: https://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/jammer-enforcement https://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/jammer-enforcement (scroll down to criminal enforcement section). The FCC doesn't even have authority to prosecute criminally. But you know don't let that get in the way of your narrative.
- CamperBob2 11y ago
  The FCC doesn't even have authority to prosecute criminally. Well, there's a novel legal theory. Try running an unlicensed broadcast transmitter, and let us know how that goes for you.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  This is novel. You scrolled to the bottom without reading the top. The top of that page is very clear: "ALERT Federal law prohibits the operation, marketing, or sale of any type of jamming equipment, including devices that interfere with cellular and Personal Communication Services (PCS), police radar, Global Positioning Systems (GPS), and wireless networking services (Wi-Fi)" Then it references The Communications Act of 1934: "The Communications Act of 1934 Section 301 - requires persons operating or using radio transmitters to be licensed or authorized under the Commissions rules (47 U.S.C. § 301)" But wait, there's more! 47 U.S.C. 302b. reads: "(b) Restrictions No person shall manufacture, import, sell, offer for sale, or ship devices or home electronic equipment and systems, or use devices, which fail to comply with regulations promulgated pursuant to this section" (Emphasis mine). Have a read of the Communications Act before you get into trouble.
- enraged_camel 11y ago
  Excuse me, aren't you supposed to be a lawyer? Please read item number 8 here and stop spreading misinformation that can get others in serious trouble: https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/jammerenforcement/jamfaq.pdf https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/jammerenforcement/jamfaq.pdf "What are the penalties for using a jammer? Can I go to prison? Yes. The unlawful use of a jammer is a criminal offense and can result in various sanctions, including a jail sentence."

I'd fully support criminal charges. If I jammed public spectrum in order to profit, I'd be in prison.

mikeash 11y ago

They're getting fined minutes of revenue, that's practically the same as prison!

bicknergseng 11y ago
Approximately 24.67 minutes for what it's worth. Marriott made > $12 billion last year and was fined $600k. I'm curious how much revenue the wifi fees bring in and whether that fine even makes a dent in income from that alone.
- facetube 11y ago
  The article says they were charging meetings up to $30,000 for internet access alone. I'd guess it was probably profitable.
- saurik 11y ago
  ... revenue is absolutely meaningless in this conversation. You should be looking at profit. It doesn't matter what Marriott charges, it matters what they make, and saying they "made > $12 billion" is totally false: they made at the high end something like $2 billion (which is still high enough that you could have used those numbers as an honest ratio instead of distorting the discussion by looking at revenue).
  - wpietri 11y ago
    I'd say revenue's probably the better number. Profit varies by quite a number of factors, but revenue is a reasonably reliable yardstick for the size of the business. For example, consider Amazon, who didn't turn a profit for decades: http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/future_tense/2013/10/25/amazon_earnings_jeff_bezos_is_like_king_midas_in_reverse_chart/1382736441.jpg.CROP.promo-mediumlarge.jpg http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/future_tense/20... Also, maybe you could tone down the drama? Even if you were right, which you aren't, the comment you're replying to was clearly well meant.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    Nobody uses profit when determining the appropriate fines for an individual. A court doesn't look at an offender making $100,000/year and say, well, they're only saving $5/month, so we'll only fine them $60. If we're talking about the discrepancy between punishments for individuals and punishments for companies, then we should absolutely be looking at revenues, not profits. Or alternately, punishments for individuals should look at savings, not income.

hackuser 11y ago

> If I jammed public spectrum in order to profit, I'd be in prison. Is this true? Can someone cite examples of this happening?

mikeash 11y ago
Here's a fellow who spent 15 months in prison for jamming ham radio, so not even for profit: http://www.eham.net/articles/3908 http://www.eham.net/articles/3908 This guy got seven years, but he was interfering with public safety radios operated by police and the like, so that's not the same: http://www.eham.net/articles/14858 http://www.eham.net/articles/14858 Looking at other convictions, it seems that the more usual punishment is arrest, probation, and a massive fine. Even compared to that, fining a big hotel $600,000 is a joke.
- newjersey 11y ago
  I want the board to go to jail, not some low level janitor. Or do we only go as high as the paper trail takes us? This lets companies erect firewalls and appear innocent like the vw CEO...
  - AnkhMorporkian 11y ago
    The alternative is imprisoning people without evidence. I'll take guilty people going free anyday.
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      Or, tweaking the law along the lines that corporate executives are vicariously liable for the job related misdeeds of their underlings, if it can be shown they did or should have known about the goings on and did nothing to stop it. Suddenly, there will be a lot more care about ethical behavior..
      - newjersey 11y ago
        Owners and board members of companies should be liable not just for the action of their employees but also the actions of their subcontractors. Otherwise, we will have situations like the one John Oliver mocked in the North Dakota petroleum industry. http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/10/12/john_oliver_exposes_the_dark_side_of_north_dakota_s_oil_boom_on_last_week.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/10/12/john_oliver_e...

Shivetya 11y ago

Well the odd thing is, in prison where you are not permitted a cell phone if you "had" one the authorities are not permitted to jam it.

noobermin 11y ago
They could take it since you're a prisoner.

rayiner 11y ago

Only if you jammed US government communications or satellite communications: https://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/jammer-enforcement https://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/jammer-enforcement (scroll down to criminal enforcement section). The FCC doesn't even have authority to prosecute criminally. But you know don't let that get in the way of your narrative.

CamperBob2 11y ago
The FCC doesn't even have authority to prosecute criminally. Well, there's a novel legal theory. Try running an unlicensed broadcast transmitter, and let us know how that goes for you.
chris_wot 11y ago
This is novel. You scrolled to the bottom without reading the top. The top of that page is very clear: "ALERT Federal law prohibits the operation, marketing, or sale of any type of jamming equipment, including devices that interfere with cellular and Personal Communication Services (PCS), police radar, Global Positioning Systems (GPS), and wireless networking services (Wi-Fi)" Then it references The Communications Act of 1934: "The Communications Act of 1934 Section 301 - requires persons operating or using radio transmitters to be licensed or authorized under the Commissions rules (47 U.S.C. § 301)" But wait, there's more! 47 U.S.C. 302b. reads: "(b) Restrictions No person shall manufacture, import, sell, offer for sale, or ship devices or home electronic equipment and systems, or use devices, which fail to comply with regulations promulgated pursuant to this section" (Emphasis mine). Have a read of the Communications Act before you get into trouble.
enraged_camel 11y ago
Excuse me, aren't you supposed to be a lawyer? Please read item number 8 here and stop spreading misinformation that can get others in serious trouble: https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/jammerenforcement/jamfaq.pdf https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/jammerenforcement/jamfaq.pdf "What are the penalties for using a jammer? Can I go to prison? Yes. The unlawful use of a jammer is a criminal offense and can result in various sanctions, including a jail sentence."