2 ms·

I live in Austria, and I hear this line time and again. It has not faded at all.

the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
Hear where exactly? I really would like to see some reference to that. //EDIT: Just to be clear. I'm not saying there are not some people that believe that, but it has been taught differently in schools for a long time, Austria's official position for the last 30 years is that it was not a victim. If you talk to old people, sure, but the last two generations? I doubt it.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  From the relevant wikipedia page: "After its convention in early 2011 mid-way between general elections, the FPÖ had a support in opinion polls of around 24-29%—at par with the SPÖ and ÖVP, and above the BZÖ. Among people under 30 years of age, the FPÖ had the support of 42%.[61][62] In June 2015 the main part of the federal party section of Salzburg split of and formed the Free Party Salzburg. [63]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria Presumably a fair chunk of those voters would describe the situation as the GP quoted. Not hard to believe at all. (And 'under 30' is definitely not 'old people') Painting yourself as the victim is a tried and true strategy of nationalist parties. After all, someone else has to be blamed for whatever is wrong it would not do to seek fault with yourself. I'm sure they were taught different in school but that won't stop people to believe whatever it is that supports their desired outcomes most, even if that goes contrary to their education. I don't like the generalization to all Austrians, that makes absolutely no sense. But some Austrians, quite probably and with 30% voting for right wing nationalists quite a few of those would be under 30. We have a similar dumb thing going on here in NL with a guy called Wilders. He's managed to enlist the young people with his brand of scapegoating and populism and most of what those people believe would leave a student of the run-up to WWII horrified. That doesn't mean all Dutch people are Wilders followers or fans but I would not rule out any demographic from being his supporters.
  - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
    I'm not sure how this is in any way related to the discussion at hand. The FPOe never had the opinion that Austria was a victim. If anything the FPOe had party members there were way too attached to national socialism and probably still has some. However if you look at present day FPOe they are attracting votes because they are the only party which promises a solution for the refugee crisis and problem that badly managed immigration in Austria causes.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      It's related because you take exception to the term 'modern Austrian'. I take exception to the generalization to all but find it perfectly believable that a segment of modern day Austrians is still in convenient denial. From personal anecdote I can confirm it but I don't like to go down that route so I'd rather stick to the statistics about the right wing party representation in Austria and submit that amongst a group that large there must be some overlap with the group that still sees Austria as the victim of the Nazis. That's simple statistics and does not require exceptional leaps of faith. Aside: Nationalist parties are pretty good at finding ways to gain a foothold using single-issue scapegoating games. What you get once they're in power is a totally different kettle of fish.
      - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
        > but find it perfectly believable that a segment of modern day Austrians is still in convenient denial. Sure, but I did not dispute that. There are people with questionable ideologies in all countries. However if you look at the population as a whole the question is how large that percentage is (among people who were not actively involved in the war). The reason why I object to the concept that Austria is particularly problematic in that regard (which is what international opinion appears to be) is because we can have a direct comparison to Germany. You can basically divide a German statistic by 10 and then compare it to Austria to see how the countries are doing. And with regards to most things with regards to national socialism we are doing significantly better than Germany these days.
    - 11y ago
- fit2rule 11y ago
  The line is, almost verbatim across multiple disparate sources: "Austria was the first victim of the Nazi's". Its so striking to hear it as a statement that it has become very much expected whenever I make a new acquaintance and the topic of discussion gets around to Austrian culture. There is so much affinity for the cliché of it, that I think it still persists as a meme. Austrians seem to love their wry, ironic, cliché .. and to excuse the current madness with a brush of "oh, its normal for Austria to have such politics.."
croisillon 11y ago
I live in Austria too and agree with the_mitsuhiko: the older generations might still think that way in 2015 Austria but the younger are more conscious, probably thanks to Hubertus Czernin's work in revealing some dirty past stories

Hear where exactly? I really would like to see some reference to that. //EDIT: Just to be clear. I'm not saying there are not some people that believe that, but it has been taught differently in schools for a long time, Austria's official position for the last 30 years is that it was not a victim. If you talk to old people, sure, but the last two generations? I doubt it.

jacquesm 11y ago
From the relevant wikipedia page: "After its convention in early 2011 mid-way between general elections, the FPÖ had a support in opinion polls of around 24-29%—at par with the SPÖ and ÖVP, and above the BZÖ. Among people under 30 years of age, the FPÖ had the support of 42%.[61][62] In June 2015 the main part of the federal party section of Salzburg split of and formed the Free Party Salzburg. [63]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria Presumably a fair chunk of those voters would describe the situation as the GP quoted. Not hard to believe at all. (And 'under 30' is definitely not 'old people') Painting yourself as the victim is a tried and true strategy of nationalist parties. After all, someone else has to be blamed for whatever is wrong it would not do to seek fault with yourself. I'm sure they were taught different in school but that won't stop people to believe whatever it is that supports their desired outcomes most, even if that goes contrary to their education. I don't like the generalization to all Austrians, that makes absolutely no sense. But some Austrians, quite probably and with 30% voting for right wing nationalists quite a few of those would be under 30. We have a similar dumb thing going on here in NL with a guy called Wilders. He's managed to enlist the young people with his brand of scapegoating and populism and most of what those people believe would leave a student of the run-up to WWII horrified. That doesn't mean all Dutch people are Wilders followers or fans but I would not rule out any demographic from being his supporters.
- the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
  I'm not sure how this is in any way related to the discussion at hand. The FPOe never had the opinion that Austria was a victim. If anything the FPOe had party members there were way too attached to national socialism and probably still has some. However if you look at present day FPOe they are attracting votes because they are the only party which promises a solution for the refugee crisis and problem that badly managed immigration in Austria causes.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    It's related because you take exception to the term 'modern Austrian'. I take exception to the generalization to all but find it perfectly believable that a segment of modern day Austrians is still in convenient denial. From personal anecdote I can confirm it but I don't like to go down that route so I'd rather stick to the statistics about the right wing party representation in Austria and submit that amongst a group that large there must be some overlap with the group that still sees Austria as the victim of the Nazis. That's simple statistics and does not require exceptional leaps of faith. Aside: Nationalist parties are pretty good at finding ways to gain a foothold using single-issue scapegoating games. What you get once they're in power is a totally different kettle of fish.
    - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
      > but find it perfectly believable that a segment of modern day Austrians is still in convenient denial. Sure, but I did not dispute that. There are people with questionable ideologies in all countries. However if you look at the population as a whole the question is how large that percentage is (among people who were not actively involved in the war). The reason why I object to the concept that Austria is particularly problematic in that regard (which is what international opinion appears to be) is because we can have a direct comparison to Germany. You can basically divide a German statistic by 10 and then compare it to Austria to see how the countries are doing. And with regards to most things with regards to national socialism we are doing significantly better than Germany these days.
  - 11y ago
fit2rule 11y ago
The line is, almost verbatim across multiple disparate sources: "Austria was the first victim of the Nazi's". Its so striking to hear it as a statement that it has become very much expected whenever I make a new acquaintance and the topic of discussion gets around to Austrian culture. There is so much affinity for the cliché of it, that I think it still persists as a meme. Austrians seem to love their wry, ironic, cliché .. and to excuse the current madness with a brush of "oh, its normal for Austria to have such politics.."

croisillon 11y ago

I live in Austria too and agree with the_mitsuhiko: the older generations might still think that way in 2015 Austria but the younger are more conscious, probably thanks to Hubertus Czernin's work in revealing some dirty past stories