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The modern Austrian will be the first to tell you that Austria was the first victim of Nazi aggression .. and ignore the welcome that was put out by a majority

The modern Austrian will be the first to tell you that Austria was the first victim of Nazi aggression .. and ignore the welcome that was put out by a majority of the Austrian populace for Hitler, but there really is a deeper truth that the reason they are telling you that Austria was a victim is that the de-Nazi'fication of Austria after the war required the then-growing generations to discard the culture of their parents, which did indeed welcome Nazi ideology with open arms. Austrians' have been programmed to think that their country was the first victim in the war - lest they perpetuate the ideologies that allowed such an easy victory for the Nazi's in the first place. No Austrian wants to admit the long-standing cultural roots of imperialism and fascism that took hold of their country - and still reflect in its darker depths. Authoritarianism is still the mode of the day; group-think and the mob mind very much still grips the Austrian zeitgeist, as it has for centuries.

pnathan 11y ago
> No Austrian wants to admit the long-standing cultural roots of imperialism and fascism that took hold of their country - and still reflect in its darker depths. Authoritarianism is still the mode of the day; group-think and the mob mind very much still grips the Austrian zeitgeist, as it has for centuries. Boy, that's a hard thing to say about an entire country. You sure you don't want to get some sources for that one?
pinaceae 11y ago
utter bullshit. while 30% of the population vote far right, there is also a strong left tradition in Austria, as exemplified by Red Vienna (Das Rote Wien), with its revolutionary social housing and socialist Mayor (re-elected, again).
- the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
  Far right by european standards. Austria's most rightwing party would still not be any more right than the GOP.
  - aselzer 11y ago
    I'm guessing more "right" in the sense of being nationalist, racist, aggressive, and having the largest amount of neo-nazis. Economically they are probably not as much right. They are rather opportunistically interventionist, corrupt, and just plain stupid.
    - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
      They are populist and without concepts. However they attract lots of voters because the traditional parties are failing at governing. This topic however is way more complex than that and I think has very little to do with Austria in the second world war or afterwards. > and having the largest amount of neo-nazis Most likely, but I doubt we have more neo nazis in general than other countries. But I would love to see statistics on that. We're one of the few countries that have strong punishments on this sort of stuff.
      - aselzer 11y ago
        I meant neo-nazis / party > Most likely, but I doubt we have more neo nazis in general than other countries. Yes, probably not. I'm just guessing, but it looks like the former DDR has the most issues. Then there's also Greece.
the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
> The modern Austrian will be the first to tell you that Austria was the first victim of Nazi aggression Uh. That has not been the case for many years now. Austria has had this attitude right after the war but things have changed a lot in the last 60 years. As someone who went through Austrian education I can tell you that Austria's view as it being a victim was controversially discussed throughout our history education and ultimately dismissed. There are probably still some that think Austria was a victim in this, but I doubt that this would be the majority.
- fit2rule 11y ago
  I live in Austria, and I hear this line time and again. It has not faded at all.
  - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
    Hear where exactly? I really would like to see some reference to that. //EDIT: Just to be clear. I'm not saying there are not some people that believe that, but it has been taught differently in schools for a long time, Austria's official position for the last 30 years is that it was not a victim. If you talk to old people, sure, but the last two generations? I doubt it.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      From the relevant wikipedia page: "After its convention in early 2011 mid-way between general elections, the FPÖ had a support in opinion polls of around 24-29%—at par with the SPÖ and ÖVP, and above the BZÖ. Among people under 30 years of age, the FPÖ had the support of 42%.[61][62] In June 2015 the main part of the federal party section of Salzburg split of and formed the Free Party Salzburg. [63]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria Presumably a fair chunk of those voters would describe the situation as the GP quoted. Not hard to believe at all. (And 'under 30' is definitely not 'old people') Painting yourself as the victim is a tried and true strategy of nationalist parties. After all, someone else has to be blamed for whatever is wrong it would not do to seek fault with yourself. I'm sure they were taught different in school but that won't stop people to believe whatever it is that supports their desired outcomes most, even if that goes contrary to their education. I don't like the generalization to all Austrians, that makes absolutely no sense. But some Austrians, quite probably and with 30% voting for right wing nationalists quite a few of those would be under 30. We have a similar dumb thing going on here in NL with a guy called Wilders. He's managed to enlist the young people with his brand of scapegoating and populism and most of what those people believe would leave a student of the run-up to WWII horrified. That doesn't mean all Dutch people are Wilders followers or fans but I would not rule out any demographic from being his supporters.
clupprich 11y ago
Your statement is probably true for the majority of the generation after WWII (with politicians leading the way), but definitely not for "The modern Austrian" (where I count myself in). We are well aware of what happened back then and we definitely know that Austrian people were involved of the cruelties that happened in WWII and before it. There's also a Wikipedia entry about the Victim theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_theory. As you can read there official Austria confessed the role of Austria during WWII in 1991. That's late, I know. But also, that was nearly 30 years ago. That's what I would call "modern".
- jacquesm 11y ago
  1991 is just yesterday to me.
  - boken 11y ago
    What use do you want us to make of that comment? Be upfront if you actually have something to say. Do you mean that Austria has only just changed its official position, relative to whatever scale matters to you personally, and should not be let off just yet from this long chain of acrid remarks? Going by your time scale, WWII was still on three days ago. Then again, there are people who might come onto this forum and in all honesty say that 1943 was only yesterday to them, and that you mistakenly said that this morning was yesterday afternoon. Do we revise our comments yet again, in light of this fact? By many measures, 24 years are scarcely any. Which measure do you want to make use of, and what consequences does it have? You haven't said anything.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      It means that to me 1991 is figuratively speaking yesterday. I remember it clear as day and it does not seem long ago at all. I realize that for lots of people on HN the early 1990's seem like forever ago, and probably quite a few of them weren't even born back then but for me personally it's an eyeblink. Yes, there are some who remember WWII vividly, I'm not one of them because I was born well after that but I can see how what you determine to be a 'long time' very much depends on your own personal time-line and that was the full extent of the meaning of that comment. To me it means yes, that they have just changed their official position, and they definitely should not be left off just yet, not because it took them that long but mostly because of developments in Austria since then. The legacy of Haider is alive and well. Just like NL should not be let off the hook either, we have our own version of that problem to contend with. (And, for that matter, our own version of the Anschluss even though you'll never hear about it outside of NL, we had a very large chunk of the Dutch openly collaborating with the invaders and a political party (NSB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Movement_in_the_Netherlands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Movement_in...) with substantial following.)
mlamat 11y ago
I love the Christopher Hitchens quote: "... the two great achievements of Austria was to convince the world that Hitler was German, and that Beethoven was Viennese."
kaeluka 11y ago
Everything you said is wrong. Sorry to be so blunt here, but sugar coating would leave room for interpretation.
stefs 11y ago
as i commented above: "when i learned about WW2 in school in the 90s we weren't really thaught that we were hitlers "first victims". we did learn about the widespread vote manipulation and effective propaganda, but also that there were the pictured parades to welcome the "occupiers" and that big parts of the population openly welcomed him into the country."

pnathan 11y ago

> No Austrian wants to admit the long-standing cultural roots of imperialism and fascism that took hold of their country - and still reflect in its darker depths. Authoritarianism is still the mode of the day; group-think and the mob mind very much still grips the Austrian zeitgeist, as it has for centuries. Boy, that's a hard thing to say about an entire country. You sure you don't want to get some sources for that one?

pinaceae 11y ago

utter bullshit. while 30% of the population vote far right, there is also a strong left tradition in Austria, as exemplified by Red Vienna (Das Rote Wien), with its revolutionary social housing and socialist Mayor (re-elected, again).

the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
Far right by european standards. Austria's most rightwing party would still not be any more right than the GOP.
- aselzer 11y ago
  I'm guessing more "right" in the sense of being nationalist, racist, aggressive, and having the largest amount of neo-nazis. Economically they are probably not as much right. They are rather opportunistically interventionist, corrupt, and just plain stupid.
  - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
    They are populist and without concepts. However they attract lots of voters because the traditional parties are failing at governing. This topic however is way more complex than that and I think has very little to do with Austria in the second world war or afterwards. > and having the largest amount of neo-nazis Most likely, but I doubt we have more neo nazis in general than other countries. But I would love to see statistics on that. We're one of the few countries that have strong punishments on this sort of stuff.
    - aselzer 11y ago
      I meant neo-nazis / party > Most likely, but I doubt we have more neo nazis in general than other countries. Yes, probably not. I'm just guessing, but it looks like the former DDR has the most issues. Then there's also Greece.

the_mitsuhiko 11y ago

> The modern Austrian will be the first to tell you that Austria was the first victim of Nazi aggression Uh. That has not been the case for many years now. Austria has had this attitude right after the war but things have changed a lot in the last 60 years. As someone who went through Austrian education I can tell you that Austria's view as it being a victim was controversially discussed throughout our history education and ultimately dismissed. There are probably still some that think Austria was a victim in this, but I doubt that this would be the majority.

fit2rule 11y ago
I live in Austria, and I hear this line time and again. It has not faded at all.
- the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
  Hear where exactly? I really would like to see some reference to that. //EDIT: Just to be clear. I'm not saying there are not some people that believe that, but it has been taught differently in schools for a long time, Austria's official position for the last 30 years is that it was not a victim. If you talk to old people, sure, but the last two generations? I doubt it.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    From the relevant wikipedia page: "After its convention in early 2011 mid-way between general elections, the FPÖ had a support in opinion polls of around 24-29%—at par with the SPÖ and ÖVP, and above the BZÖ. Among people under 30 years of age, the FPÖ had the support of 42%.[61][62] In June 2015 the main part of the federal party section of Salzburg split of and formed the Free Party Salzburg. [63]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria Presumably a fair chunk of those voters would describe the situation as the GP quoted. Not hard to believe at all. (And 'under 30' is definitely not 'old people') Painting yourself as the victim is a tried and true strategy of nationalist parties. After all, someone else has to be blamed for whatever is wrong it would not do to seek fault with yourself. I'm sure they were taught different in school but that won't stop people to believe whatever it is that supports their desired outcomes most, even if that goes contrary to their education. I don't like the generalization to all Austrians, that makes absolutely no sense. But some Austrians, quite probably and with 30% voting for right wing nationalists quite a few of those would be under 30. We have a similar dumb thing going on here in NL with a guy called Wilders. He's managed to enlist the young people with his brand of scapegoating and populism and most of what those people believe would leave a student of the run-up to WWII horrified. That doesn't mean all Dutch people are Wilders followers or fans but I would not rule out any demographic from being his supporters.

clupprich 11y ago

Your statement is probably true for the majority of the generation after WWII (with politicians leading the way), but definitely not for "The modern Austrian" (where I count myself in). We are well aware of what happened back then and we definitely know that Austrian people were involved of the cruelties that happened in WWII and before it. There's also a Wikipedia entry about the Victim theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_theory. As you can read there official Austria confessed the role of Austria during WWII in 1991. That's late, I know. But also, that was nearly 30 years ago. That's what I would call "modern".

jacquesm 11y ago
1991 is just yesterday to me.
- boken 11y ago
  What use do you want us to make of that comment? Be upfront if you actually have something to say. Do you mean that Austria has only just changed its official position, relative to whatever scale matters to you personally, and should not be let off just yet from this long chain of acrid remarks? Going by your time scale, WWII was still on three days ago. Then again, there are people who might come onto this forum and in all honesty say that 1943 was only yesterday to them, and that you mistakenly said that this morning was yesterday afternoon. Do we revise our comments yet again, in light of this fact? By many measures, 24 years are scarcely any. Which measure do you want to make use of, and what consequences does it have? You haven't said anything.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    It means that to me 1991 is figuratively speaking yesterday. I remember it clear as day and it does not seem long ago at all. I realize that for lots of people on HN the early 1990's seem like forever ago, and probably quite a few of them weren't even born back then but for me personally it's an eyeblink. Yes, there are some who remember WWII vividly, I'm not one of them because I was born well after that but I can see how what you determine to be a 'long time' very much depends on your own personal time-line and that was the full extent of the meaning of that comment. To me it means yes, that they have just changed their official position, and they definitely should not be left off just yet, not because it took them that long but mostly because of developments in Austria since then. The legacy of Haider is alive and well. Just like NL should not be let off the hook either, we have our own version of that problem to contend with. (And, for that matter, our own version of the Anschluss even though you'll never hear about it outside of NL, we had a very large chunk of the Dutch openly collaborating with the invaders and a political party (NSB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Movement_in_the_Netherlands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Movement_in...) with substantial following.)

mlamat 11y ago

I love the Christopher Hitchens quote: "... the two great achievements of Austria was to convince the world that Hitler was German, and that Beethoven was Viennese."

kaeluka 11y ago

Everything you said is wrong. Sorry to be so blunt here, but sugar coating would leave room for interpretation.

stefs 11y ago

as i commented above: "when i learned about WW2 in school in the 90s we weren't really thaught that we were hitlers "first victims". we did learn about the widespread vote manipulation and effective propaganda, but also that there were the pictured parades to welcome the "occupiers" and that big parts of the population openly welcomed him into the country."