5 ms·

I immediately thought of a quote from the movie Amadaus (About Mozart) EMPEROR: Of course I do. It's very good. Of course now and then - just now and then - it

by baldfat 11y ago

I immediately thought of a quote from the movie Amadaus (About Mozart) EMPEROR: Of course I do. It's very good. Of course now and then - just now and then - it gets a touch elaborate. MOZART: What do you mean, Sire? EMPEROR: Well, I mean occasionally it seems to have, how shall one say? [he stops in difficulty; turning to Orsini-Rosenberg] How shall one say, Director? ORSINI-ROSENBERG: Too many notes, Your Majesty? EMPEROR: Exactly. Very well put. Too many notes. MOZART: I don't understand. There are just as many notes, Majesty, as are required. Neither more nor less. EMPEROR: My dear fellow, there are in fact only so many notes the ear can hear in the course of an evening. I think I'm right in saying that, aren't I, Court Composer? SALIERI: Yes! yes! er, on the whole, yes, Majesty. MOZART: But this is absurd! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU This certainly is an interesting area to explorer musically. Want can we do with a piano if we had more than ten notes to play at a time. Right now it is HOW many can we play and still sound musical from the samples I saw.

coldtea 11y ago
>This certainly is an interesting area to explorer musically. Want can we do with a piano if we had more than ten notes to play at a time. We do, there are lots of pieces for 2 people playing the same piano (so 20 fingers).
- hellofunk 11y ago
  And lots of pieces for 2 pianos and 4 hands, so 40 fingers.
- skywhopper 11y ago
  Composers have been known to write in fist-clusters and forearm-strikes that resemble the sort of stuff going on in the video. Ben Folds in the early days would often slam his piano bench into the keyboard to hit quite a few more notes than would be possible using just one's arms and hands, even.
- vlunkr 11y ago
  There are other limitations that we can't achieve naturally. Like speed. There's a limit to how fast you can make those hammers move.
  - beat 11y ago
    Conlon Nancarrow, who was mentioned at the beginning of the article, challenged those limitations pretty hard. In his home studio, he had two player pianos physically synced, and the felt hammer heads replaced with steel hammers. There was sometimes so little paper left on the rolls that they would shred and jam while playing. Despite the busy approach, though, Nancarrow's music tends to be joyous and delightful. It reminds me much of Duke Ellington's orchestral compositions.
- SixSigma 11y ago
  Or Bach's concerto for four pianos, or Vivaldi's http://youtu.be/7OwQOb6bd1M http://youtu.be/7OwQOb6bd1M
Intermernet 11y ago
Followed by the brilliant: EMPEROR: My dear, young man, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Cut a few and it will be perfect. MOZART: Which few did you have in mind, Majesty? I always loved that exchange!
- baldfat 11y ago
  I was so sad to read the history of Mozart and that most of the movie was just factually wrong. I still love the movie though.
idlewords 11y ago
There's another nice Mozart connection to unplayable music in the story of the bet between Mozart and Haydn, where the former bet the latter he could write a piece of music Haydn't couldn't play. It required striking a single note in the middle of the keyboard when the hands were very far apart. Haydn tried it and failed. Mozart struck the key with his nose. http://byronreese.com/mozart-haydn/ http://byronreese.com/mozart-haydn/
ccvannorman 11y ago
Cut to His Majesty being blown out of his throne by dubstep. "Is this few enough notes for you?" Mozart yells, hands cupped.
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  "Oh well, a little zen music won't bother you then, your majesty" https://youtu.be/WOqrJong0Pk?t=2m31s https://youtu.be/WOqrJong0Pk?t=2m31s
  - wldcordeiro 11y ago
    It bothers me that they took a perfectly good Aphex Twin song and threw yelling on top of it.
    - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
      Naww man its perfect. That's a perfect scene in an almost perfect movie.
fossuser 11y ago
Yeah - the ones I've heard that actually don't sound like a cacophony of notes usually don't optimize on note count. Circus Galop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DekTSh1QmvY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DekTSh1QmvY Death Waltz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tds0qoxWVss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tds0qoxWVss Both get a little carried away, but the main melody is clear and pretty interesting.
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  Well, they both sound like someone just combined the lead/solo and rhythm/background section into one piece played on one instrument, which is neat, but not some mindblowing display of the limitations of current music theory and instrumentation. I imagine our hard limit is human attention. We can focus on the lead and to a lesser extent listen to the background stuff but probably not listen to much more. I don't think we can really focus on some large complexity. That just ends up sounding like a discordant cacophony to us. If anything, we're made to enjoy fairly simple musical relationships. Chords can only get so complex before they sound off to us. It seems to be a happy little coincidence that ten fingers is enough to make complex music without hitting too many practical limits. Just because that limit exist doesn't mean its wrong and that we need to overcome it. The same way a third leg won't let us run faster, fight better, or climb better.
  - silverhydra 11y ago
    Rather than sounding like it, that's actually what they are. I'm inclined to agree with the rest of your post, although there's certainly room for people to expand their knowledge. Death Waltz is an interesting exercise but definitely overplays its hand in a few parts and adds too much to the song, when Zun's compositions already err on the side of doing too much to begin with.
  - david-given 11y ago
    It's interesting to compare that version with this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMHNrRaQB4Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMHNrRaQB4Q Audio's not good, alas, but it's actually being played by a human. It sounds like it's got all the complexity of the machine-played one, which of course it doesn't --- which does suggest that the extra complexity wasn't adding anything in the first place...
heuermh 11y ago
Yours reminded me of: "Someone once said that the Philistines just try to sing too many notes at once. And that the notes seem to stumble and fall over each other. Listen to the Philistines' bubbly song as it gains speed and complexity as it moves along." Tarquin Descending · The Philistines Jr. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PepVNaznzEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PepVNaznzEE More on topic, little-scale wrote a tool in MAX/MSP that renders an image into MIDI data in this style http://little-scale.blogspot.com/2014/03/picture2midi-max-patch.html http://little-scale.blogspot.com/2014/03/picture2midi-max-pa...
joeyspn 11y ago
It has been proved that the subconscious finds more pleasurable musical simplicity or pieces that despite having many notes can be reduced to simple patterns: There is a long held theory that the subconscious mind can recognise patterns within complex data and that we are hardwired to find simple patterns pleasurable. Dr Nicholas Hudson used 'lossless' music compression programs to mimic the brain's ability to condense audio information. He compared the amount of compressibility of random noise to a wide range of music including classical, techno, rock, and pop, and found that, while random noise could only be compressed to 86% of its original file size, and techno, rock, and pop to about 60%, the apparently complex Beethoven's 3rd Symphony compressed to 40%. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110120073507.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110120073507.ht... Music is very complex, you need to master harmony to make many notes sound as a whole and interconnected piece. That's the secret: Less is more. "More notes" is not necessarily better.
- gluelogic 11y ago
  Where has your first claim been proven?
- coldpie 11y ago
  Sounds like pseudo-science.
- hebdo 11y ago
  Random noise cannot be (on average) loselessly compressed, not even by 0.0000001% of the original size. To see that it is the case it is sufficient to notice that a compression algorithm is essentially a way to reorder all possible inputs, all at once, and then apply the pigeonhole principle. Kind of similar to the proof that if a loseless compression algorithm shortens at least one input, it must also extend at least one. Claiming that there exists an algorithm that loselessly compresses random noise to 86% of the original size is just wrong.
  - dspig 11y ago
    It could have been pink noise rather than white (an argument for using it here would be it has a more similar spectral content to music). Pink noise definitely compresses more though still maybe not that much.
cma 11y ago
>Want can we do with a piano if we had more than ten notes to play at a time. Zappa explored this heavily with his synclavier work. Wasn't a fan, but the early MIDI sound of it it turned me off more than anything and I didn't give it a fair shake.
SixSigma 11y ago
Imagine if he'd written it for three pianos: http://youtu.be/eZBTVismQBk http://youtu.be/eZBTVismQBk

by baldfat 11y ago

coldtea 11y ago

>This certainly is an interesting area to explorer musically. Want can we do with a piano if we had more than ten notes to play at a time. We do, there are lots of pieces for 2 people playing the same piano (so 20 fingers).

hellofunk 11y ago
And lots of pieces for 2 pianos and 4 hands, so 40 fingers.
skywhopper 11y ago
Composers have been known to write in fist-clusters and forearm-strikes that resemble the sort of stuff going on in the video. Ben Folds in the early days would often slam his piano bench into the keyboard to hit quite a few more notes than would be possible using just one's arms and hands, even.
vlunkr 11y ago
There are other limitations that we can't achieve naturally. Like speed. There's a limit to how fast you can make those hammers move.
- beat 11y ago
  Conlon Nancarrow, who was mentioned at the beginning of the article, challenged those limitations pretty hard. In his home studio, he had two player pianos physically synced, and the felt hammer heads replaced with steel hammers. There was sometimes so little paper left on the rolls that they would shred and jam while playing. Despite the busy approach, though, Nancarrow's music tends to be joyous and delightful. It reminds me much of Duke Ellington's orchestral compositions.
SixSigma 11y ago
Or Bach's concerto for four pianos, or Vivaldi's http://youtu.be/7OwQOb6bd1M http://youtu.be/7OwQOb6bd1M

Intermernet 11y ago

Followed by the brilliant: EMPEROR: My dear, young man, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Cut a few and it will be perfect. MOZART: Which few did you have in mind, Majesty? I always loved that exchange!

baldfat 11y ago
I was so sad to read the history of Mozart and that most of the movie was just factually wrong. I still love the movie though.

idlewords 11y ago

There's another nice Mozart connection to unplayable music in the story of the bet between Mozart and Haydn, where the former bet the latter he could write a piece of music Haydn't couldn't play. It required striking a single note in the middle of the keyboard when the hands were very far apart. Haydn tried it and failed. Mozart struck the key with his nose. http://byronreese.com/mozart-haydn/ http://byronreese.com/mozart-haydn/

ccvannorman 11y ago

Cut to His Majesty being blown out of his throne by dubstep. "Is this few enough notes for you?" Mozart yells, hands cupped.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
"Oh well, a little zen music won't bother you then, your majesty" https://youtu.be/WOqrJong0Pk?t=2m31s https://youtu.be/WOqrJong0Pk?t=2m31s
- wldcordeiro 11y ago
  It bothers me that they took a perfectly good Aphex Twin song and threw yelling on top of it.
  - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
    Naww man its perfect. That's a perfect scene in an almost perfect movie.

fossuser 11y ago

Yeah - the ones I've heard that actually don't sound like a cacophony of notes usually don't optimize on note count. Circus Galop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DekTSh1QmvY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DekTSh1QmvY Death Waltz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tds0qoxWVss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tds0qoxWVss Both get a little carried away, but the main melody is clear and pretty interesting.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
Well, they both sound like someone just combined the lead/solo and rhythm/background section into one piece played on one instrument, which is neat, but not some mindblowing display of the limitations of current music theory and instrumentation. I imagine our hard limit is human attention. We can focus on the lead and to a lesser extent listen to the background stuff but probably not listen to much more. I don't think we can really focus on some large complexity. That just ends up sounding like a discordant cacophony to us. If anything, we're made to enjoy fairly simple musical relationships. Chords can only get so complex before they sound off to us. It seems to be a happy little coincidence that ten fingers is enough to make complex music without hitting too many practical limits. Just because that limit exist doesn't mean its wrong and that we need to overcome it. The same way a third leg won't let us run faster, fight better, or climb better.
- silverhydra 11y ago
  Rather than sounding like it, that's actually what they are. I'm inclined to agree with the rest of your post, although there's certainly room for people to expand their knowledge. Death Waltz is an interesting exercise but definitely overplays its hand in a few parts and adds too much to the song, when Zun's compositions already err on the side of doing too much to begin with.
- david-given 11y ago
  It's interesting to compare that version with this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMHNrRaQB4Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMHNrRaQB4Q Audio's not good, alas, but it's actually being played by a human. It sounds like it's got all the complexity of the machine-played one, which of course it doesn't --- which does suggest that the extra complexity wasn't adding anything in the first place...

heuermh 11y ago

Yours reminded me of: "Someone once said that the Philistines just try to sing too many notes at once. And that the notes seem to stumble and fall over each other. Listen to the Philistines' bubbly song as it gains speed and complexity as it moves along." Tarquin Descending · The Philistines Jr. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PepVNaznzEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PepVNaznzEE More on topic, little-scale wrote a tool in MAX/MSP that renders an image into MIDI data in this style http://little-scale.blogspot.com/2014/03/picture2midi-max-patch.html http://little-scale.blogspot.com/2014/03/picture2midi-max-pa...

joeyspn 11y ago

It has been proved that the subconscious finds more pleasurable musical simplicity or pieces that despite having many notes can be reduced to simple patterns: There is a long held theory that the subconscious mind can recognise patterns within complex data and that we are hardwired to find simple patterns pleasurable. Dr Nicholas Hudson used 'lossless' music compression programs to mimic the brain's ability to condense audio information. He compared the amount of compressibility of random noise to a wide range of music including classical, techno, rock, and pop, and found that, while random noise could only be compressed to 86% of its original file size, and techno, rock, and pop to about 60%, the apparently complex Beethoven's 3rd Symphony compressed to 40%. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110120073507.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110120073507.ht... Music is very complex, you need to master harmony to make many notes sound as a whole and interconnected piece. That's the secret: Less is more. "More notes" is not necessarily better.

gluelogic 11y ago
Where has your first claim been proven?
coldpie 11y ago
Sounds like pseudo-science.
hebdo 11y ago
Random noise cannot be (on average) loselessly compressed, not even by 0.0000001% of the original size. To see that it is the case it is sufficient to notice that a compression algorithm is essentially a way to reorder all possible inputs, all at once, and then apply the pigeonhole principle. Kind of similar to the proof that if a loseless compression algorithm shortens at least one input, it must also extend at least one. Claiming that there exists an algorithm that loselessly compresses random noise to 86% of the original size is just wrong.
- dspig 11y ago
  It could have been pink noise rather than white (an argument for using it here would be it has a more similar spectral content to music). Pink noise definitely compresses more though still maybe not that much.

cma 11y ago

>Want can we do with a piano if we had more than ten notes to play at a time. Zappa explored this heavily with his synclavier work. Wasn't a fan, but the early MIDI sound of it it turned me off more than anything and I didn't give it a fair shake.

SixSigma 11y ago

Imagine if he'd written it for three pianos: http://youtu.be/eZBTVismQBk http://youtu.be/eZBTVismQBk