4 ms·

Avoiding Last Place: Some Things We Don't Outgrow (2011)

18 points by tnorthcutt 11y ago

huherto 11y ago
May be another example of this. A lot of white people in the south didn't own slaves. They were very poor but they opposed emancipation because they didn't want to be equal to the freed slaves. I don't really know how historically accurate this is though.
kelukelugames 11y ago
Does this explain why some LGB hate the T? Why marginalized groups will gladly marginalize other groups? Humans are a sad bunch.
- jcater 11y ago
  That brings up a question I've been asking myself a lot lately. While I fully support transgendered rights, how did it become that transgendered became lumped in with LGB? For the latter, we're talking (in general) love and sexuality. But transgendered brings on a whole new component that doesn't seem to have much in common with the latter.
  - kelukelugames 11y ago
    They've been trying to unite since the Stonewall riots and have been turning on each other too. Feminists also tried to exclude lesbians. Shit's been flowing downhill since the beginning of time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots#Unlikely_community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots#Unlikely_commu... I wish all the people of color would show solidarity too. Sadly I read a lot of attacks again Asians in the black subreddits. Maybe one day.
    - mikestew 11y ago
      Interesting, if depressing, link. Thanks. It's as if folks of all sorts have not the first hint of political savvy. "Oh, those gay men are too patriarchal." Yeah, well, you better get over it for the sake of your larger goal, 'cuz straight male whitey is your common problem. Sniping at each other isn't going to help, assuming your goal isn't simply philosophical purity. To use a less racially and sexually charged example, it reminds me of the motorcyclist I knew who was always going on about bicyclists. Dude, we all have a common enemy: the car (or rather, the car's idiot operator). What's good for cyclists is good for motorcyclists. Yeah, the local club taking up an entire lane three abreast is annoying. But it's not nearly as annoying as laws and attitudes that dictate alternate means of transportation will only be begrudgingly tolerated.
  - kdamken 11y ago
    Sexuality and gender go hand in hand. Without gender being a thing you wouldn't even have the LGB part of it. So, it makes sense they would go together.
  - ThrustVectoring 11y ago
    The common theme is "publicly visible sex stuff that traditionalists and conservatives persecute". LGBT covers most of the people interested in a coalition against conservative sexual mores. The BDSM/kink scene is something that is much easier to keep private, and polyamory is small/private enough too. Heterosexuals interested in per-marital sex have basically won their fight, so they're less interested as well.
kdamken 11y ago
It makes sense that people making just above minimum wage would be opposed to raising it. I'd assume they had put in more time/effort than their coworkers to make those extra dollars an hour and were rewarded accordingly. Let's say they're making like 12 an hour as a shift manager. If the minimum wage were to suddenly increase to 12 an hour, the only people who would benefit would be those making less than that currently. The business would absolutely not give raises to all of its other employees to keep the ratio as it was before. So suddenly, all the hard work for the extra few dollars an hour have gone to waste. It would feel like the people who benefitted got a raise for nothing, while the other person actually had to earn it. Of course they would be opposed to that. It's a tough situation - how do you raise the minimum wage without everything else increasing with it or people harboring resentment?
michaelvkpdx 11y ago
This is only new for people who did not grow up in poverty. For those of us who were below the middle class, the daily competition to avoid last place was a fact of life in school and in college, and those behaviors and scars don't heal easily, even after you've escaped the pit. Upward mobility is not completely a myth, but it's a dream akin in actual probability to making it in professional sports, at least here in the USA (in my case, growing up just across the Bay from Silicon Valley). "Trickle down economics"- aka "Reaganomics"- the great dream of the Republicans- has exacerbated the situation over the last 35 years. I wonder how I was lucky enough to get out. The rich don't need to keep the poor down, sadly. The poor do a good enough job of keeping one another down.
digitalsushi 11y ago
When I was a teenager in the late 90s, I was working at an ISP and learning bsd and Linux. I had accumulated a first tier of working knowledge - I could just barely use the system but to my friends and family I was a unix god. Being a kid with my first taste of authority, I remember how opposed I was to tool improvements that made these systems more accessible. I was complaining to my boss, a unix greybeard, and he got really annoyed with me and explained that the system should be improved so that everyone can benefit from it. I read this and I think I just understood a little better how petty I am.

18 points by tnorthcutt 11y ago

May be another example of this. A lot of white people in the south didn't own slaves. They were very poor but they opposed emancipation because they didn't want to be equal to the freed slaves. I don't really know how historically accurate this is though.

kelukelugames 11y ago

Does this explain why some LGB hate the T? Why marginalized groups will gladly marginalize other groups? Humans are a sad bunch.

jcater 11y ago
That brings up a question I've been asking myself a lot lately. While I fully support transgendered rights, how did it become that transgendered became lumped in with LGB? For the latter, we're talking (in general) love and sexuality. But transgendered brings on a whole new component that doesn't seem to have much in common with the latter.
- kelukelugames 11y ago
  They've been trying to unite since the Stonewall riots and have been turning on each other too. Feminists also tried to exclude lesbians. Shit's been flowing downhill since the beginning of time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots#Unlikely_community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots#Unlikely_commu... I wish all the people of color would show solidarity too. Sadly I read a lot of attacks again Asians in the black subreddits. Maybe one day.
  - mikestew 11y ago
    Interesting, if depressing, link. Thanks. It's as if folks of all sorts have not the first hint of political savvy. "Oh, those gay men are too patriarchal." Yeah, well, you better get over it for the sake of your larger goal, 'cuz straight male whitey is your common problem. Sniping at each other isn't going to help, assuming your goal isn't simply philosophical purity. To use a less racially and sexually charged example, it reminds me of the motorcyclist I knew who was always going on about bicyclists. Dude, we all have a common enemy: the car (or rather, the car's idiot operator). What's good for cyclists is good for motorcyclists. Yeah, the local club taking up an entire lane three abreast is annoying. But it's not nearly as annoying as laws and attitudes that dictate alternate means of transportation will only be begrudgingly tolerated.
- kdamken 11y ago
  Sexuality and gender go hand in hand. Without gender being a thing you wouldn't even have the LGB part of it. So, it makes sense they would go together.
- ThrustVectoring 11y ago
  The common theme is "publicly visible sex stuff that traditionalists and conservatives persecute". LGBT covers most of the people interested in a coalition against conservative sexual mores. The BDSM/kink scene is something that is much easier to keep private, and polyamory is small/private enough too. Heterosexuals interested in per-marital sex have basically won their fight, so they're less interested as well.

kdamken 11y ago

It makes sense that people making just above minimum wage would be opposed to raising it. I'd assume they had put in more time/effort than their coworkers to make those extra dollars an hour and were rewarded accordingly. Let's say they're making like 12 an hour as a shift manager. If the minimum wage were to suddenly increase to 12 an hour, the only people who would benefit would be those making less than that currently. The business would absolutely not give raises to all of its other employees to keep the ratio as it was before. So suddenly, all the hard work for the extra few dollars an hour have gone to waste. It would feel like the people who benefitted got a raise for nothing, while the other person actually had to earn it. Of course they would be opposed to that. It's a tough situation - how do you raise the minimum wage without everything else increasing with it or people harboring resentment?

michaelvkpdx 11y ago

This is only new for people who did not grow up in poverty. For those of us who were below the middle class, the daily competition to avoid last place was a fact of life in school and in college, and those behaviors and scars don't heal easily, even after you've escaped the pit. Upward mobility is not completely a myth, but it's a dream akin in actual probability to making it in professional sports, at least here in the USA (in my case, growing up just across the Bay from Silicon Valley). "Trickle down economics"- aka "Reaganomics"- the great dream of the Republicans- has exacerbated the situation over the last 35 years. I wonder how I was lucky enough to get out. The rich don't need to keep the poor down, sadly. The poor do a good enough job of keeping one another down.

digitalsushi 11y ago

When I was a teenager in the late 90s, I was working at an ISP and learning bsd and Linux. I had accumulated a first tier of working knowledge - I could just barely use the system but to my friends and family I was a unix god. Being a kid with my first taste of authority, I remember how opposed I was to tool improvements that made these systems more accessible. I was complaining to my boss, a unix greybeard, and he got really annoyed with me and explained that the system should be improved so that everyone can benefit from it. I read this and I think I just understood a little better how petty I am.