11 ms·

The Impossible Music of Black MIDI

265 points by GotAnyMegadeth 11y ago

digi_owl 11y ago
Their examples reminded me of listening to a modem going all out. At points it simply turns into a hiss.
omginternets 11y ago
It's a shame that none of this music is ... well... enjoyable.
- valdiorn 11y ago
  or musical.
  - hodwik 11y ago
    There's a little tonality in there.
- armchair_hunter 11y ago
  It depends on the track and how dense the notes get and how quickly. Take a listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozFoJS5h-10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozFoJS5h-10 which is based off of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS_a8Edde8k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS_a8Edde8k which, in turn is based off of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wFRIWFraWQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wFRIWFraWQ
- mbrock 11y ago
  Sure it is. It just depends on what you enjoy. It's called subjective experience and it's a pretty big deal for art. In my experience, that "Bad Apple" tune in the article is sublime, strange, beautiful, funny, and novel, all enjoyable characteristics.
  - coldpie 11y ago
    Heh, I saw your post before I read the article and thought "surely it can't be Bad Apple from Touhou." But it is. If you know the tune, you can hear it in the video, but it's a pretty weird corruption of the song. I guess I'm not surprised to see Touhou music being popular in this scene. It's pretty baroque and bombastic to being with, so taking baroque style to its logical conclusion is..... this. I'm not a fan, but I can see the thread. (Aside, if you want a modern take on classical music, check out some of the later Touhou soundtracks. You might find yourself surprised for video game music.) Also a little Totaka's song easter egg in the middle of the first video, if you're into obscure video game minutia.
    - mbrock 11y ago
      I don't know anything about video games, but I understand the piece is a heavily modified version of that tune... and yeah, part of the "charm" comes from the corruption of the way the software can't handle the extreme amount of notes. Like a weird digital and arrythmic version of amplifier distortion.
  - omginternets 11y ago
    >It's called subjective experience and it's a pretty big deal for art Yes, I know. What I did was called a quip, and I thought the fine people of Hacker News had a sense of humor. Surely you'll admit that this is far less accessible, in terms of enjoyment, than a lot of other music.
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
      > Surely you'll admit that this is far less accessible, in terms of enjoyment, than a lot of other music. One cool thing about the internet is the 'long tail' effect that you don't hear much about anymore that allows for all those microgenres like this to thrive.
    - mbrock 11y ago
      You may have noticed that my rejoinder was not entirely serious either. Of course it's less accessible. In terms of enjoyment though, I actively seek out non-accessible music, because some of it seems to tickle a particular funny-bone and I don't find that in accessible music. The music I put on to really enjoy on a visceral level is stuff that I can't even play ten seconds of in public settings without people yelling at me. I dunno, people seem to find even this stuff inaccessible, but it's some of my favorite music ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9xaUBKY5I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9xaUBKY5I
- xutopia 11y ago
  Exactly! In the same vein I find beat boxing to be interesting but I have yet to find a full length album I'd listen to. It seems the novelty wears off so quick with this form of art.
- cardamomo 11y ago
  I'm sure many people would say the same thing about some of the music of Conlon Nancarrow. But having earned himself — among many honors — a MacArthur award and a recent retrospective exhibition and performance series at the Whitney Museum of American Art in NYC, it seems that others have found way to enjoy his work despite (or perhaps because of) its nonconventional sound.
  - pervycreeper 11y ago
    There's no comparison between the two, except for both having "lots of notes"
    - pavel_lishin 11y ago
      For what it's worth, the couple of random Black Midi videos I watched from this thread were much more enjoyable than a random Nancarrow video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFz2lCEkjFk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFz2lCEkjFk So I'm not sure how you can say "there's no comparison".
      - Frondo 11y ago
        Speaking as someone who's been playing classical and new music as an avid amateur (e.g. community orchestras, university orchestras) for several years, stuff like that isn't meant to be enjoyed as such. You don't put it on and relax with a glass of wine like if you were putting on a Grover Washington record or something by Sibelius. I wouldn't even say it's supposed to be in the group of "challenging but at least somewhat structured and therefore listenable" not like In C (Terry Riley, if you're curious) or Music for Pieces of Wood (Steve Reich). It might be intended to challenge what we think of as music, or challenge our assumptions about mechanization and culture. I'm not at all familiar with Conlon Nancarrow, but if he's in gallery exhibitions, and not on tour, that's the angle.
        pervycreeper 11y ago
        Try listening to Study no. 7, it's thrilling.
- beat 11y ago
  One of the things that separates proper avant-garde art from other art is that "enjoyable" isn't a concern. I recently got to see the avant-garde chef Ferran Adria speak (probably the most important chef of the past 30 years), and one of the key questions he asked was, "Is it my job as a chef to make a meal you will enjoy?" (paraphrased from memory, and he had a translator onstage, so...) This is a critical question. I used to play avant-garde music myself, in a guitar + drums improvisational duo. It wasn't our job to make music anyone else liked, or even music we liked. We were exploring the limits of sound and the interrelationships of the instruments and ideas. To this day, even in much more mainstream contexts, I play a lot of guitar that doesn't "sound like a guitar". I learned a ton about my instrument, and about sound and music.
DanBC 11y ago
There's a bit of discussion from 2 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6640963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6640963
- untothebreach 11y ago
  There is also another post from 3 hours before this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10544633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10544633
  - oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
    How is that even possible? Edit: OK, since someone's going to downvote me for asking that question, I'll add a bit more context: Duplicate submissions are supposed to be ignored. The URLs for these two submissions appear to be identical, so my question stands: how has this happened?
    - detaro 11y ago
      AFAIK the duplicate finder was tweaked to only react to already discussed links, and I guess 3 comments didn't count as a "discussion".
    - brudgers 11y ago
      Perhaps both submitted URL's were different but resolved to the same URL by HN's software?
      - neogodless 11y ago
        So wouldn't HN's software detect "identical resolved URLs"?
    - pessimizer 11y ago
      Duplicate submissions haven't been ignored for a long time, and HN was even actively emailing submitters and asking them to resubmit stories. Now, from what I understand, the software is automatically resubmitting stories (or just renewing stories) that their algorithm says probably deserved more attention.
s_kilk 11y ago
Pretty cool, but the note-counts are a bit less impressive when you realize they're using big blocks of notes to simulate percussion and noise/pads.
joeyspn 11y ago
"Less is more" - Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe
- mbrock 11y ago
  "More is more" - Yngwie Malmsteen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHZ48AE3TOI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHZ48AE3TOI
  - cubano 11y ago
    And his amps definitely go to 11... I was a huge Yngwie fan back when I was into guitar music...his "Rising Force" album simply blew me away. "Icarus' Dream Suite Op. 4" has to be one of the best guitar songs ever written and executed. I actually stopped trying to be a guitar-hero after studying that album.
- baldfat 11y ago
  Mozart would disagree. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU
  - joeyspn 11y ago
    Not even Mozart can disagree with Science... http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110120073507.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110120073507.ht...
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
sideshowb 11y ago
Too many notes? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_UsmvtyxEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_UsmvtyxEI (To clarify - I feel the clip from Amadeus is somewhat amusing in this context, but to those who critique black midi as music, I don't think it is really ... it's art).
hammock 11y ago
Has anyone ever created an "inverted" song? For example, take the Ode to Joy melody and play every other note BUT that one. Maybe limit yourself to one octave so it's at least somewhat listenable. Wonder what that would sound like.
- pidg 11y ago
  Yes, it's been done by some prominent composers. It doesn't always sound good without some tweaking! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_%28music%29#Melodies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_%28music%29#Melodies
  - fragsworth 11y ago
    > When applied to melodies, the inversion of a given melody is the melody turned upside-down. That's a lot different from what the original comment was asking for.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >Has anyone ever created an "inverted" song? For example, take the Ode to Joy melody and play every other note BUT that one. That would just be a cacophony -- the relations used for notes in a symphony do not exist in their "complement" (all other notes except those in the current harmony). E.g. for the trivial case of a single C major triad chord, the "inverted song" would be: "C# D D# F G# A A# B B#" which is mostly cacophonous noise, even when restricted to one octave. (If we restricted the notes to the same scale D F A B would be slightly better, almost a D7).
- Nacraile 11y ago
  All of the played notes will be in dischord. As for the unplayed notes: each note is a harmonic series of pure tones (F, 2F, 3F, ... where F is the fundamental frequency). Different notes have some degree of (sometimes approximate) overlap in their harmonic series (indeed, the greater the overlap, the more the notes sound to be in harmony). So, all of the tones in the un-notes' harmonic series will still be present as overtones of the other notes. Therefore, the un-notes would likely be a fairly subtle damping of a few frequencies.
ph0rque 11y ago
So, it's like the high-frequency trading of music then.
dwiel 11y ago
Lubomyr Melnyk does something similar by hand on a real piano. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LICgfSqZcdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LICgfSqZcdg
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
The music looks incredibly dense, but I wonder what would happen if you took a symphonic score and put all the notes on the same staff. (and also wonder if they could get significant reduction in note count by using different instruments besides a piano)
6stringmerc 11y ago
Mmmm. Reminds me of some of the most interesting Drum & Bass that I come across in my listening / purchasing. From what I can tell, it has about the same appeal haha. I've been legitimately impressed by the abilities of certain artists to really push the boundaries and limits - in my opinion - of packing in musicality in the D&B platform. One I can point to would be Camo & Krooked[0]. Another that sort of crosses into bass music would be Knife Party[1]. What they have in common, to my ears, is that they're able to embrace the full spectrum of available sounds. High peaks and really, really deep bass. Then, with so much digital control, they can go up and down, place certain sounds in certain tonal areas...it's just amazing to me. One of the things that infuriates me about music commentary is the tired refrain of "rock is dead" or "music isn't original anymore" because frankly, they're not true. Rock continues to be a broad genre, and I really see electronic-production tunes like Skrillex an extension of rock and metal in that it appeals to a younger audience (predominately) and is very abrasive to 'traditional' ears. Music is really going through a metamorphasis of innovation thanks to software like Ableton and the numerous brilliant synths out there. It's one thing to say "I don't like that music" but it's completely dishonest to say nothing's original anymore. Yes, there will always be 'trend jumpers' and some formulaic stuff (it goes for all genres, and specifically anything Max Martin touches), but now and then, BAM. Something shows up and moves the needle. [0] Camo & Krooked - Let's Get Dirty - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL5H38bpvFA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL5H38bpvFA [1] Knife Party - Resistance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwqUGkR9yh8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwqUGkR9yh8
- pistle 11y ago
  You are not mentioning the whole drill'n'bass era/subgenre. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y7DVbFado0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y7DVbFado0 4 minutes in... there were a few people/groups that did this style for a while. Aphex Twin was the most popular artist that crossed into this territory, but Venetian and others took it a bit more "purely" into the drill area. Sonically and technically, compared to the black MIDI thing, it's more open-ended. The limitations to this area are the focus on percussive elements vs. tearing apart other pieces of the palette with as much care.
  - 11y ago
apalmer 11y ago
Not really fundamentally interesting from a musical standpoint. Only 'interesting' part of it is looks funny on paper...
- motoboi 11y ago
  To mee, it seems like they arrange a song for several instruments, like an orchestra, and just put all notes on the same midi instrument.
thebouv 11y ago
What I find particularly interesting to watch is the patterns drawn by some of those YouTube videos when the notes are struck. A visual art as well as the sound.
userbinator 11y ago
If these were in the form of player piano rolls, they'd probably have a similar effect to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lace_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lace_card
TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
Even more notes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4
andrewclunn 11y ago
I'm synesthetic and this is AMAZING! How did I not know this genre existed before now?
apalmer 11y ago
Not really fundamentally interesting from a musical standpoint. Only 'interesting' part of it is looks funny on paper...
baldfat 11y ago
I immediately thought of a quote from the movie Amadaus (About Mozart) EMPEROR: Of course I do. It's very good. Of course now and then - just now and then - it gets a touch elaborate. MOZART: What do you mean, Sire? EMPEROR: Well, I mean occasionally it seems to have, how shall one say? [he stops in difficulty; turning to Orsini-Rosenberg] How shall one say, Director? ORSINI-ROSENBERG: Too many notes, Your Majesty? EMPEROR: Exactly. Very well put. Too many notes. MOZART: I don't understand. There are just as many notes, Majesty, as are required. Neither more nor less. EMPEROR: My dear fellow, there are in fact only so many notes the ear can hear in the course of an evening. I think I'm right in saying that, aren't I, Court Composer? SALIERI: Yes! yes! er, on the whole, yes, Majesty. MOZART: But this is absurd! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU This certainly is an interesting area to explorer musically. Want can we do with a piano if we had more than ten notes to play at a time. Right now it is HOW many can we play and still sound musical from the samples I saw.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >This certainly is an interesting area to explorer musically. Want can we do with a piano if we had more than ten notes to play at a time. We do, there are lots of pieces for 2 people playing the same piano (so 20 fingers).
  - hellofunk 11y ago
    And lots of pieces for 2 pianos and 4 hands, so 40 fingers.
  - skywhopper 11y ago
    Composers have been known to write in fist-clusters and forearm-strikes that resemble the sort of stuff going on in the video. Ben Folds in the early days would often slam his piano bench into the keyboard to hit quite a few more notes than would be possible using just one's arms and hands, even.
  - vlunkr 11y ago
    There are other limitations that we can't achieve naturally. Like speed. There's a limit to how fast you can make those hammers move.
avian 11y ago
I guess the "speaking piano" could also classify as black MIDI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
  Seems like black MIDI could also speak.
kmenzel 11y ago
It's amazing how complicated you can make something look with very low midi velocities...
pdkl95 11y ago
There's a "too many notes" version of Bad Apple? Hmm... I think I'll stick with marasy8's incredible cover[1] of the song. Not that there is anything wrong with noise. As a fan of CCCC (Mayuko Hino)[2], I have often thought noise is best when it is played directly (analog), instead of the digital perfection of MIDI. I like my digital noise when it's written in Fourth[3]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr7uwOp0Yck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr7uwOp0Yck [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXbb-e0RRc0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXbb-e0RRc0 [3] http://pelulamu.net/ibniz/ http://pelulamu.net/ibniz/ (warning: turn down the volume - raw square waves at the beginning!)
aclissold 11y ago
This is fascinating! They took a medium I had always classified as a cheap imitation of a real piano, and accentuated its strengths to make it something incredibly! Blocks of notes for percussion, impossibly fast trills for a different timbre of sustained notes, melodies that are detectable aurally but not visually... Awesome!
- bhrgunatha 11y ago
  > They took a medium I had always classified as a cheap imitation of a real piano It's all down to the sound generator at the other end of the MIDI cable though. Electric piano's are pretty amazing sounding these days. Lots of music creation software uses sampled, live instruments and some of those are recorded at very high quality. All of which can be driven through MIDI too, although there are obvious limitations to the way a professional can play a real piano, most people would be hard-pressed to tell the difference in a blind test. Awesome indeed!
- fractallyte 11y ago
  Some of those visual patterns are reminiscent of cellular automata... So work out the rules, and bring the music (literally) to 'life'!
- beat 11y ago
  If it can make a sound, it can be a musical instrument. Black MIDI is really the shallow end of the avant-garde music pool. I once watched a percussion solo that consisted of a drummer very carefully crumpling a sheet of cellophane. It was beautiful, musical and moving (albeit not very loud). Using things that are not "instruments" as instruments is pretty common among percussionists, and sometimes melodic musicians as well.
dang 11y ago
A few discussions: https://hn.algolia.com/?query=The%20Impossible%20Music%20of%20Black%20MIDI&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix&page=0 https://hn.algolia.com/?query=The%20Impossible%20Music%20of%....
felipebueno 11y ago
That's facinating! If you are reading this comment watch this [Black MIDI] Synthesia – "Nyan Trololol" | Rainbow Tylenol & Nyan Cat Remix ~ BusiedGem https://youtu.be/zqan54VUSq0 https://youtu.be/zqan54VUSq0 You are welcome ;)
- egypturnash 11y ago
  Holy shit that is gorgeous. It's like the song is its own visualizer when played back this way. Those rotating rainbows...
reviseddamage 11y ago
The weirdest thing: my son who is autistic is fascinated by this music and can't seem to let go. He keeps watching/listening to every "black MIDI" out there on youtube.
- motoboi 11y ago
  Isn't some of the autistic spectrum attached to complexity and organization? Maybe you son is fascinated by the complexity and order of those pieces.
  - reviseddamage 11y ago
    I think you're right. he finds order in what i perceive as disorder. I love that he loves that.
    - mbrock 11y ago
      :) I'm a little curious if your son would like this tune by Mats & Morgan Band. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9xaUBKY5I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9xaUBKY5I
      - reviseddamage 11y ago
        i'll have him listen to it tonight and let you know. :)
        reviseddamage 11y ago
        So i made him listen to it and he didn't seem interested. He instead turned to his staple videos instead, some black midi and lot, lot of "Klasky Csupo."
        mbrock 11y ago
        Haha, alright!
skywhopper 11y ago
The potential artistic value here doesn't appear to be so much in the pure number of notes, which is not particularly impressive in itself, given that MIDI files are easily auto-generated. But the examples given remind me most of all of the old early days of overdriving vacuum-tube based amplifiers till you got the crunching of the waveforms and created an entirely new sound. Here, the folks creating these files are creating new kinds of sounds by overdriving their MIDI synths, essentially. By providing more notes than can actually be generated at once, or at rates faster than the chosen synth patch can coherently render, you can achieve new and unplanned sounds and effects. Essentially the same idea as getting the explosion-type of sounds out of old 8-bit PCM synths in game consoles by overloading the input beyond spec.
boomlinde 11y ago
It's interesting how this sort of blurs the line between composition and sound design. At some point I would only really call these "notes" in the strictly technical sense that they are encoded as such in the MIDI stream, while the compositions themselves seem like relatively straight forward songs. In that sense, songs like Circus Galop (written for player piano) are more interesting compositionally.
beat 11y ago
As much fun as the black MIDI is, you should also check out the music of Conlon Nancarrow, who was mentioned prominently at the beginning of the article. Unlike black MIDI, which tends strongly to the metronomic behavior of drum machines and modern computerized music, Nancarrow's music swings. His heart wasn't in 8 bit video game sounds, but rather in 20th century avant-garde classical and jazz. The closest tonal reference for most people would be certain kinds of soundtrack music, especially older mystery movies and kaiju films from Japan. But it's more musically interesting, and more human, than the relatively simplistic sounds of black MIDI. Dig it, man.
greyhat 11y ago
Along the same lines, but perhaps more accessible, and played with a Yamaha Disklavier player piano: http://www.kylegann.com/BudRanBackOut.mp3 http://www.kylegann.com/BudRanBackOut.mp3 Kyle Gann - Bud Ran Back Out (Mechanical Piano Study No. 6) (2001) "The question was whether I could make the Disklavier respond as fast as Bud Powell played. Doubting that I could surpass him, I added some tricks that I hope Powell might have envied, such as playing his ultrafast melodies in chromatic sixths and triple octaves, and simultaneous melodies in tempo ratios of 7 against 8 against 9. It was time for technology to provide a new spin on Thelonious Monk's composition In Walked Bud. The piece is dedicated to Thurman Barker." More here: http://www.kylegann.com/Gannmusic.html http://www.kylegann.com/Gannmusic.html http://www.kylegann.com/DisklavierStudiesnotes.html http://www.kylegann.com/DisklavierStudiesnotes.html
autarch 11y ago
This isn't particularly novel. Two good historical examples besides Conlon Nancarrow are: * Krzysztof Penderecki's Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HilGthRhwP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HilGthRhwP8 (music + animated score) * George Crumb's Black Angels - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11o8nHk-l_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11o8nHk-l_o - (images from the score via https://goo.gl/2rHYAc https://goo.gl/2rHYAc)
sprokolopolis 11y ago
A normally electronic musician, Dan Deacon, has used some very complex player piano arrangements. When he recorded his album Bromst, they set up multiple MIDI player pianos to play the midi arrangements. What I found very interesting is that the density of the notes actually builds up to a very full and soothing (to me) sound, when played on the analogue instruments rather than on a computer. This is an album I play when driving through the woods or staring at the stars. There is texture to be heard from all of the hammering keys, but the notes all combine to a smoother and very meditative, calming, uplifting sound. I feel like like that fullness of sound from the analogue instrument allows the listener to here the overarching melodies, rather than focus on how many notes are being played. Here is a link to a documentary about the recording of the album linked to a visual of the pianos playing: https://youtu.be/TPg4Vcr56F0?t=785 https://youtu.be/TPg4Vcr56F0?t=785
dietrichepp 11y ago
It is a little rough to see this on the front page for so long when I submitted the exact same link and title 3 hours earlier. :-(

265 points by GotAnyMegadeth 11y ago

digi_owl 11y ago

Their examples reminded me of listening to a modem going all out. At points it simply turns into a hiss.

omginternets 11y ago

It's a shame that none of this music is ... well... enjoyable.

valdiorn 11y ago
or musical.
- hodwik 11y ago
  There's a little tonality in there.
armchair_hunter 11y ago
It depends on the track and how dense the notes get and how quickly. Take a listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozFoJS5h-10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozFoJS5h-10 which is based off of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS_a8Edde8k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS_a8Edde8k which, in turn is based off of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wFRIWFraWQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wFRIWFraWQ
mbrock 11y ago
Sure it is. It just depends on what you enjoy. It's called subjective experience and it's a pretty big deal for art. In my experience, that "Bad Apple" tune in the article is sublime, strange, beautiful, funny, and novel, all enjoyable characteristics.
- coldpie 11y ago
  Heh, I saw your post before I read the article and thought "surely it can't be Bad Apple from Touhou." But it is. If you know the tune, you can hear it in the video, but it's a pretty weird corruption of the song. I guess I'm not surprised to see Touhou music being popular in this scene. It's pretty baroque and bombastic to being with, so taking baroque style to its logical conclusion is..... this. I'm not a fan, but I can see the thread. (Aside, if you want a modern take on classical music, check out some of the later Touhou soundtracks. You might find yourself surprised for video game music.) Also a little Totaka's song easter egg in the middle of the first video, if you're into obscure video game minutia.
  - mbrock 11y ago
    I don't know anything about video games, but I understand the piece is a heavily modified version of that tune... and yeah, part of the "charm" comes from the corruption of the way the software can't handle the extreme amount of notes. Like a weird digital and arrythmic version of amplifier distortion.
- omginternets 11y ago
  >It's called subjective experience and it's a pretty big deal for art Yes, I know. What I did was called a quip, and I thought the fine people of Hacker News had a sense of humor. Surely you'll admit that this is far less accessible, in terms of enjoyment, than a lot of other music.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
    > Surely you'll admit that this is far less accessible, in terms of enjoyment, than a lot of other music. One cool thing about the internet is the 'long tail' effect that you don't hear much about anymore that allows for all those microgenres like this to thrive.
  - mbrock 11y ago
    You may have noticed that my rejoinder was not entirely serious either. Of course it's less accessible. In terms of enjoyment though, I actively seek out non-accessible music, because some of it seems to tickle a particular funny-bone and I don't find that in accessible music. The music I put on to really enjoy on a visceral level is stuff that I can't even play ten seconds of in public settings without people yelling at me. I dunno, people seem to find even this stuff inaccessible, but it's some of my favorite music ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9xaUBKY5I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9xaUBKY5I
xutopia 11y ago
Exactly! In the same vein I find beat boxing to be interesting but I have yet to find a full length album I'd listen to. It seems the novelty wears off so quick with this form of art.
cardamomo 11y ago
I'm sure many people would say the same thing about some of the music of Conlon Nancarrow. But having earned himself — among many honors — a MacArthur award and a recent retrospective exhibition and performance series at the Whitney Museum of American Art in NYC, it seems that others have found way to enjoy his work despite (or perhaps because of) its nonconventional sound.
- pervycreeper 11y ago
  There's no comparison between the two, except for both having "lots of notes"
  - pavel_lishin 11y ago
    For what it's worth, the couple of random Black Midi videos I watched from this thread were much more enjoyable than a random Nancarrow video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFz2lCEkjFk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFz2lCEkjFk So I'm not sure how you can say "there's no comparison".
    - Frondo 11y ago
      Speaking as someone who's been playing classical and new music as an avid amateur (e.g. community orchestras, university orchestras) for several years, stuff like that isn't meant to be enjoyed as such. You don't put it on and relax with a glass of wine like if you were putting on a Grover Washington record or something by Sibelius. I wouldn't even say it's supposed to be in the group of "challenging but at least somewhat structured and therefore listenable" not like In C (Terry Riley, if you're curious) or Music for Pieces of Wood (Steve Reich). It might be intended to challenge what we think of as music, or challenge our assumptions about mechanization and culture. I'm not at all familiar with Conlon Nancarrow, but if he's in gallery exhibitions, and not on tour, that's the angle.
      - pervycreeper 11y ago
        Try listening to Study no. 7, it's thrilling.
beat 11y ago
One of the things that separates proper avant-garde art from other art is that "enjoyable" isn't a concern. I recently got to see the avant-garde chef Ferran Adria speak (probably the most important chef of the past 30 years), and one of the key questions he asked was, "Is it my job as a chef to make a meal you will enjoy?" (paraphrased from memory, and he had a translator onstage, so...) This is a critical question. I used to play avant-garde music myself, in a guitar + drums improvisational duo. It wasn't our job to make music anyone else liked, or even music we liked. We were exploring the limits of sound and the interrelationships of the instruments and ideas. To this day, even in much more mainstream contexts, I play a lot of guitar that doesn't "sound like a guitar". I learned a ton about my instrument, and about sound and music.

DanBC 11y ago

There's a bit of discussion from 2 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6640963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6640963

untothebreach 11y ago
There is also another post from 3 hours before this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10544633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10544633
- oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
  How is that even possible? Edit: OK, since someone's going to downvote me for asking that question, I'll add a bit more context: Duplicate submissions are supposed to be ignored. The URLs for these two submissions appear to be identical, so my question stands: how has this happened?
  - detaro 11y ago
    AFAIK the duplicate finder was tweaked to only react to already discussed links, and I guess 3 comments didn't count as a "discussion".
  - brudgers 11y ago
    Perhaps both submitted URL's were different but resolved to the same URL by HN's software?
    - neogodless 11y ago
      So wouldn't HN's software detect "identical resolved URLs"?
  - pessimizer 11y ago
    Duplicate submissions haven't been ignored for a long time, and HN was even actively emailing submitters and asking them to resubmit stories. Now, from what I understand, the software is automatically resubmitting stories (or just renewing stories) that their algorithm says probably deserved more attention.

s_kilk 11y ago

Pretty cool, but the note-counts are a bit less impressive when you realize they're using big blocks of notes to simulate percussion and noise/pads.

joeyspn 11y ago

"Less is more" - Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe

mbrock 11y ago
"More is more" - Yngwie Malmsteen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHZ48AE3TOI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHZ48AE3TOI
- cubano 11y ago
  And his amps definitely go to 11... I was a huge Yngwie fan back when I was into guitar music...his "Rising Force" album simply blew me away. "Icarus' Dream Suite Op. 4" has to be one of the best guitar songs ever written and executed. I actually stopped trying to be a guitar-hero after studying that album.
baldfat 11y ago
Mozart would disagree. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU
- joeyspn 11y ago
  Not even Mozart can disagree with Science... http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110120073507.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110120073507.ht...
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]

sideshowb 11y ago

Too many notes? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_UsmvtyxEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_UsmvtyxEI (To clarify - I feel the clip from Amadeus is somewhat amusing in this context, but to those who critique black midi as music, I don't think it is really ... it's art).

hammock 11y ago

Has anyone ever created an "inverted" song? For example, take the Ode to Joy melody and play every other note BUT that one. Maybe limit yourself to one octave so it's at least somewhat listenable. Wonder what that would sound like.

pidg 11y ago
Yes, it's been done by some prominent composers. It doesn't always sound good without some tweaking! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_%28music%29#Melodies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_%28music%29#Melodies
- fragsworth 11y ago
  > When applied to melodies, the inversion of a given melody is the melody turned upside-down. That's a lot different from what the original comment was asking for.
coldtea 11y ago
>Has anyone ever created an "inverted" song? For example, take the Ode to Joy melody and play every other note BUT that one. That would just be a cacophony -- the relations used for notes in a symphony do not exist in their "complement" (all other notes except those in the current harmony). E.g. for the trivial case of a single C major triad chord, the "inverted song" would be: "C# D D# F G# A A# B B#" which is mostly cacophonous noise, even when restricted to one octave. (If we restricted the notes to the same scale D F A B would be slightly better, almost a D7).
Nacraile 11y ago
All of the played notes will be in dischord. As for the unplayed notes: each note is a harmonic series of pure tones (F, 2F, 3F, ... where F is the fundamental frequency). Different notes have some degree of (sometimes approximate) overlap in their harmonic series (indeed, the greater the overlap, the more the notes sound to be in harmony). So, all of the tones in the un-notes' harmonic series will still be present as overtones of the other notes. Therefore, the un-notes would likely be a fairly subtle damping of a few frequencies.

ph0rque 11y ago

So, it's like the high-frequency trading of music then.

dwiel 11y ago

Lubomyr Melnyk does something similar by hand on a real piano. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LICgfSqZcdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LICgfSqZcdg

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago

The music looks incredibly dense, but I wonder what would happen if you took a symphonic score and put all the notes on the same staff. (and also wonder if they could get significant reduction in note count by using different instruments besides a piano)

6stringmerc 11y ago

Mmmm. Reminds me of some of the most interesting Drum & Bass that I come across in my listening / purchasing. From what I can tell, it has about the same appeal haha. I've been legitimately impressed by the abilities of certain artists to really push the boundaries and limits - in my opinion - of packing in musicality in the D&B platform. One I can point to would be Camo & Krooked[0]. Another that sort of crosses into bass music would be Knife Party[1]. What they have in common, to my ears, is that they're able to embrace the full spectrum of available sounds. High peaks and really, really deep bass. Then, with so much digital control, they can go up and down, place certain sounds in certain tonal areas...it's just amazing to me. One of the things that infuriates me about music commentary is the tired refrain of "rock is dead" or "music isn't original anymore" because frankly, they're not true. Rock continues to be a broad genre, and I really see electronic-production tunes like Skrillex an extension of rock and metal in that it appeals to a younger audience (predominately) and is very abrasive to 'traditional' ears. Music is really going through a metamorphasis of innovation thanks to software like Ableton and the numerous brilliant synths out there. It's one thing to say "I don't like that music" but it's completely dishonest to say nothing's original anymore. Yes, there will always be 'trend jumpers' and some formulaic stuff (it goes for all genres, and specifically anything Max Martin touches), but now and then, BAM. Something shows up and moves the needle. [0] Camo & Krooked - Let's Get Dirty - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL5H38bpvFA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL5H38bpvFA [1] Knife Party - Resistance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwqUGkR9yh8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwqUGkR9yh8

pistle 11y ago
You are not mentioning the whole drill'n'bass era/subgenre. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y7DVbFado0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y7DVbFado0 4 minutes in... there were a few people/groups that did this style for a while. Aphex Twin was the most popular artist that crossed into this territory, but Venetian and others took it a bit more "purely" into the drill area. Sonically and technically, compared to the black MIDI thing, it's more open-ended. The limitations to this area are the focus on percussive elements vs. tearing apart other pieces of the palette with as much care.
- 11y ago

apalmer 11y ago

Not really fundamentally interesting from a musical standpoint. Only 'interesting' part of it is looks funny on paper...

motoboi 11y ago
To mee, it seems like they arrange a song for several instruments, like an orchestra, and just put all notes on the same midi instrument.

thebouv 11y ago

What I find particularly interesting to watch is the patterns drawn by some of those YouTube videos when the notes are struck. A visual art as well as the sound.

userbinator 11y ago

If these were in the form of player piano rolls, they'd probably have a similar effect to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lace_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lace_card

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago

Even more notes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4

andrewclunn 11y ago

I'm synesthetic and this is AMAZING! How did I not know this genre existed before now?

apalmer 11y ago

Not really fundamentally interesting from a musical standpoint. Only 'interesting' part of it is looks funny on paper...

baldfat 11y ago

I immediately thought of a quote from the movie Amadaus (About Mozart) EMPEROR: Of course I do. It's very good. Of course now and then - just now and then - it gets a touch elaborate. MOZART: What do you mean, Sire? EMPEROR: Well, I mean occasionally it seems to have, how shall one say? [he stops in difficulty; turning to Orsini-Rosenberg] How shall one say, Director? ORSINI-ROSENBERG: Too many notes, Your Majesty? EMPEROR: Exactly. Very well put. Too many notes. MOZART: I don't understand. There are just as many notes, Majesty, as are required. Neither more nor less. EMPEROR: My dear fellow, there are in fact only so many notes the ear can hear in the course of an evening. I think I'm right in saying that, aren't I, Court Composer? SALIERI: Yes! yes! er, on the whole, yes, Majesty. MOZART: But this is absurd! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU This certainly is an interesting area to explorer musically. Want can we do with a piano if we had more than ten notes to play at a time. Right now it is HOW many can we play and still sound musical from the samples I saw.

coldtea 11y ago
>This certainly is an interesting area to explorer musically. Want can we do with a piano if we had more than ten notes to play at a time. We do, there are lots of pieces for 2 people playing the same piano (so 20 fingers).
- hellofunk 11y ago
  And lots of pieces for 2 pianos and 4 hands, so 40 fingers.
- skywhopper 11y ago
  Composers have been known to write in fist-clusters and forearm-strikes that resemble the sort of stuff going on in the video. Ben Folds in the early days would often slam his piano bench into the keyboard to hit quite a few more notes than would be possible using just one's arms and hands, even.
- vlunkr 11y ago
  There are other limitations that we can't achieve naturally. Like speed. There's a limit to how fast you can make those hammers move.

avian 11y ago

I guess the "speaking piano" could also classify as black MIDI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4

0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
Seems like black MIDI could also speak.

kmenzel 11y ago

It's amazing how complicated you can make something look with very low midi velocities...

pdkl95 11y ago

There's a "too many notes" version of Bad Apple? Hmm... I think I'll stick with marasy8's incredible cover[1] of the song. Not that there is anything wrong with noise. As a fan of CCCC (Mayuko Hino)[2], I have often thought noise is best when it is played directly (analog), instead of the digital perfection of MIDI. I like my digital noise when it's written in Fourth[3]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr7uwOp0Yck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr7uwOp0Yck [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXbb-e0RRc0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXbb-e0RRc0 [3] http://pelulamu.net/ibniz/ http://pelulamu.net/ibniz/ (warning: turn down the volume - raw square waves at the beginning!)

aclissold 11y ago

This is fascinating! They took a medium I had always classified as a cheap imitation of a real piano, and accentuated its strengths to make it something incredibly! Blocks of notes for percussion, impossibly fast trills for a different timbre of sustained notes, melodies that are detectable aurally but not visually... Awesome!

bhrgunatha 11y ago
> They took a medium I had always classified as a cheap imitation of a real piano It's all down to the sound generator at the other end of the MIDI cable though. Electric piano's are pretty amazing sounding these days. Lots of music creation software uses sampled, live instruments and some of those are recorded at very high quality. All of which can be driven through MIDI too, although there are obvious limitations to the way a professional can play a real piano, most people would be hard-pressed to tell the difference in a blind test. Awesome indeed!
fractallyte 11y ago
Some of those visual patterns are reminiscent of cellular automata... So work out the rules, and bring the music (literally) to 'life'!
beat 11y ago
If it can make a sound, it can be a musical instrument. Black MIDI is really the shallow end of the avant-garde music pool. I once watched a percussion solo that consisted of a drummer very carefully crumpling a sheet of cellophane. It was beautiful, musical and moving (albeit not very loud). Using things that are not "instruments" as instruments is pretty common among percussionists, and sometimes melodic musicians as well.

dang 11y ago

A few discussions: https://hn.algolia.com/?query=The%20Impossible%20Music%20of%20Black%20MIDI&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix&page=0 https://hn.algolia.com/?query=The%20Impossible%20Music%20of%....

felipebueno 11y ago

That's facinating! If you are reading this comment watch this [Black MIDI] Synthesia – "Nyan Trololol" | Rainbow Tylenol & Nyan Cat Remix ~ BusiedGem https://youtu.be/zqan54VUSq0 https://youtu.be/zqan54VUSq0 You are welcome ;)

egypturnash 11y ago
Holy shit that is gorgeous. It's like the song is its own visualizer when played back this way. Those rotating rainbows...

reviseddamage 11y ago

The weirdest thing: my son who is autistic is fascinated by this music and can't seem to let go. He keeps watching/listening to every "black MIDI" out there on youtube.

motoboi 11y ago
Isn't some of the autistic spectrum attached to complexity and organization? Maybe you son is fascinated by the complexity and order of those pieces.
- reviseddamage 11y ago
  I think you're right. he finds order in what i perceive as disorder. I love that he loves that.
  - mbrock 11y ago
    :) I'm a little curious if your son would like this tune by Mats & Morgan Band. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9xaUBKY5I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9xaUBKY5I
    - reviseddamage 11y ago
      i'll have him listen to it tonight and let you know. :)
      - reviseddamage 11y ago
        So i made him listen to it and he didn't seem interested. He instead turned to his staple videos instead, some black midi and lot, lot of "Klasky Csupo."
        mbrock 11y ago
        Haha, alright!

skywhopper 11y ago

The potential artistic value here doesn't appear to be so much in the pure number of notes, which is not particularly impressive in itself, given that MIDI files are easily auto-generated. But the examples given remind me most of all of the old early days of overdriving vacuum-tube based amplifiers till you got the crunching of the waveforms and created an entirely new sound. Here, the folks creating these files are creating new kinds of sounds by overdriving their MIDI synths, essentially. By providing more notes than can actually be generated at once, or at rates faster than the chosen synth patch can coherently render, you can achieve new and unplanned sounds and effects. Essentially the same idea as getting the explosion-type of sounds out of old 8-bit PCM synths in game consoles by overloading the input beyond spec.

boomlinde 11y ago

It's interesting how this sort of blurs the line between composition and sound design. At some point I would only really call these "notes" in the strictly technical sense that they are encoded as such in the MIDI stream, while the compositions themselves seem like relatively straight forward songs. In that sense, songs like Circus Galop (written for player piano) are more interesting compositionally.

beat 11y ago

As much fun as the black MIDI is, you should also check out the music of Conlon Nancarrow, who was mentioned prominently at the beginning of the article. Unlike black MIDI, which tends strongly to the metronomic behavior of drum machines and modern computerized music, Nancarrow's music swings. His heart wasn't in 8 bit video game sounds, but rather in 20th century avant-garde classical and jazz. The closest tonal reference for most people would be certain kinds of soundtrack music, especially older mystery movies and kaiju films from Japan. But it's more musically interesting, and more human, than the relatively simplistic sounds of black MIDI. Dig it, man.

greyhat 11y ago

Along the same lines, but perhaps more accessible, and played with a Yamaha Disklavier player piano: http://www.kylegann.com/BudRanBackOut.mp3 http://www.kylegann.com/BudRanBackOut.mp3 Kyle Gann - Bud Ran Back Out (Mechanical Piano Study No. 6) (2001) "The question was whether I could make the Disklavier respond as fast as Bud Powell played. Doubting that I could surpass him, I added some tricks that I hope Powell might have envied, such as playing his ultrafast melodies in chromatic sixths and triple octaves, and simultaneous melodies in tempo ratios of 7 against 8 against 9. It was time for technology to provide a new spin on Thelonious Monk's composition In Walked Bud. The piece is dedicated to Thurman Barker." More here: http://www.kylegann.com/Gannmusic.html http://www.kylegann.com/Gannmusic.html http://www.kylegann.com/DisklavierStudiesnotes.html http://www.kylegann.com/DisklavierStudiesnotes.html

autarch 11y ago

This isn't particularly novel. Two good historical examples besides Conlon Nancarrow are: * Krzysztof Penderecki's Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HilGthRhwP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HilGthRhwP8 (music + animated score) * George Crumb's Black Angels - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11o8nHk-l_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11o8nHk-l_o - (images from the score via https://goo.gl/2rHYAc https://goo.gl/2rHYAc)

sprokolopolis 11y ago

A normally electronic musician, Dan Deacon, has used some very complex player piano arrangements. When he recorded his album Bromst, they set up multiple MIDI player pianos to play the midi arrangements. What I found very interesting is that the density of the notes actually builds up to a very full and soothing (to me) sound, when played on the analogue instruments rather than on a computer. This is an album I play when driving through the woods or staring at the stars. There is texture to be heard from all of the hammering keys, but the notes all combine to a smoother and very meditative, calming, uplifting sound. I feel like like that fullness of sound from the analogue instrument allows the listener to here the overarching melodies, rather than focus on how many notes are being played. Here is a link to a documentary about the recording of the album linked to a visual of the pianos playing: https://youtu.be/TPg4Vcr56F0?t=785 https://youtu.be/TPg4Vcr56F0?t=785

dietrichepp 11y ago

It is a little rough to see this on the front page for so long when I submitted the exact same link and title 3 hours earlier. :-(