14 ms·

Northface teams with Japanese startup to create spider silk moon parka

57 points by nether 11y ago

saiya-jin 11y ago
Anybody has a clue what for the synthetic spider material would be used? I presume on the outer surface because of its durability, but you still need membrane ala Goretex below it to maintain waterproof & relatively breathable qualities, if its for outdoor activities and not just walking around the town. Haven't seen any details in articles, and can't play video at work :(
- richmarr 11y ago
  Yep, from the video it looks like the outer shell.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- borkt 11y ago
  Goretex or even waterproof fabric is not necessary in many alpine situations where this jacket could be used. A lot of down filled insulating garments do not have any waterproof fabric as it is and instead people prefer to just throw a shell over them if there is any precip.
  - saiya-jin 11y ago
    Ah, for down application of course, didn't catch that part. There you want just as windproof/everything resistant as possible, and when it's too hot, you open/put it down. Would be interesting to see comparison of actual benefits compared to current high tech fabrics used, all high-fill lightweight down stuff has some nanotech fabric to keep it light & durable.
TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago
Spiber's website has more details: https://www.spiber.jp/en/endeavor?section=3 https://www.spiber.jp/en/endeavor?section=3 - click on 'Protein Materials' at top, the page seems to start loading there but then jumps to the 'Launching' section.
dnautics 11y ago
Qmonos means "spider web" or "spider nest (lit.)" In Japanese.
- amake 11y ago
  Only if you are capable of deciphering that gibberish into the actual word, kumo no su (クモの巣).
  - zenir 11y ago
    I was really wondering, because Japanese doesn't even have a Q
    - silentplummet 11y ago
      It does have a 九 however.
fit2rule 11y ago
I can't help wonder at the cognitive dissonance of people paying good money to actually be wrapped up in a spiders cocoon. Something about it gives me the serious heebie-jeebies .. ;)
- maxerickson 11y ago
  Cognitive dissonance would be wearing a silk shirt and refusing to put this coat on. Thinking of a manufactured product as a spider web is just irrational.
- TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago
  One thought led to another and I imagined these new protein based synthetic fibres being used as building materials, and then some virus being a vector for a mutation to the bacteria used to manufacture (grow) the fibres, and future Earth being cocooned in spider silk. Maybe we'll work out how to get the spiders to spin us a space elevator in exchange for a continuous supply of insects.
  - fit2rule 11y ago
    Space-spiders arrive and make contact with Earth, and at the ensuing world party, mistakenly accept the elite rich, coddled in these outfits, as an offering of sacrifice .. the one of probably a few cultural blunders that eventually unite our two species' in co-habitual free-trade of commodities and .. resources.
richmarr 11y ago
Slightly anticlimactic to hear about this exciting new material becoming available, only to find the first application of it is a jacket for rich folks to ponce about a ski slope in. Really? Their other stated target markets seem more interesting: automotive & medical devices (https://www.spiber.jp/en/endeavor https://www.spiber.jp/en/endeavor). Anyone know what this would be used for in the automotive industry? Carbon fibre substitute?
- icegreentea 11y ago
  I think the very page you linked explains why they're targeting clothing. Performance clothing is a high margin, high turn around market with low regulation and relatively loose quality standards. Spiber can use this as a test bed for scaling their processes before they can go engage more technically and regulatory challenging fields with confidence. This is literally one of the few fields where spider silk has a use, but isn't actually super critical. Unlike say on an medical implant. You want to learn about the quirks of QCing spider silk (whoa.. we really do live in the future) on a parka, not in someone's body.
  - richmarr 11y ago
    That makes sense... starting somewhere where you don't need ergulatory approval or medical trials.
- tobylane 11y ago
  The same could be said for Tesla, they made a high end sports car a few years ago and soon they'll have an affordable sedan.
- tinco 11y ago
  Just think of it as tricking dumb rich people into sponsoring technical research. Just like Musk does with the Tesla. All this does is enable them go set up a factory line.
  - endemic 11y ago
    That's a bit harsh, isn't it? While I'm sure some early adopters only get in for the "cool" factor, others no doubt understand that they are helping subsidize the technology.
etiam 11y ago
Discussion from a couple of weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10463972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10463972
- wuschel 11y ago
  I wonder in what stage they are in. I once had a side project going to make spider silk chemically. I am still in awe on how the spider developed this amazing tool: the cascade of chemical reactions involved, the spider bio-reactor that spins the chemicals into the spider silk thread. And of course, so little hope to go anywhere near that with classical chemical means. I agree with toufka on that one: "It's hard to see unless you look closely, but this is the beginning of biological nanotechnology." I wonder at what stage they are, and how the parameters of their material compare to naturally woven spilder silk.
  - dnautics 11y ago
    I used to work in the amyloid field, which is tangentially related - last I recall the companies were getting to 10~25% the tensile strength of spider silk. Which suggested they were doing something fundamentally wrong. The most obvious thing, to me, was that they were using a chemical called HFIP "hexafluoroisopropanol" to initially dissolve the silk proteins. This solvent forces proteins into a form called alpha helix which in this case abolishes the protein soluble - but the transition to beta sheet (which it needs to be for its strength) is a poor one. The amyloid field was using this a lot, and the results were horrible. The result was extremely irreproducible results, which the field papered over by doing experiments with an n of 1. My graduate thesis was basically doing experiments without HFIP and getting results that actually make sense (with higher Ns). I reached out to Refactored Materials, which at the time was trying to do the spider silk thing, to suggest they play with the procedures that I had developed for amyloid work, but a trip to visit SF and give a lecture fell through. Recently, I was in a conversation about a SF biotech that I think rose from the ashes of RM trying to do the spider silk thing, and apparently they aren't using HFIP (or TFE, trifluoroethanol, a similar solvent with similar effects) anymore, but I didn't get too many more details because these companies tend to keep their techniques close to their chest. Sadly, I still see papers publishing amyloid work with HFIP and TFE going through my google scholar feed (I am now almost 7 years post-PhD).
gypsy_boots 11y ago
When much of the dialogue around spider-silk is its strength properties, it seems like a non sequitur when North Faces goes and makes a parka out of the material. There was no talk of its warmth properties.
Maarten88 11y ago
Funny they create a Parka out of this. If it were really so much stronger and lighter, why not win a Volvo Ocean Race with sails made out of this. I'd personally be in the market for a surfing kite if this is better than the usual spinaker nylon. But I guess there is more money to be made in expensive clothing than in making real progress.
- leesalminen 11y ago
  Making real progress towards efficient boat sails? I don't live near any body of water that's large enough to sail in, but I do live near several mountains with peaks >14k feet. New winter jackets seem more applicable to me.
  - Maarten88 11y ago
    Then maybe they could make a bullet-proof vest for you? A crash-absorbing racecar? A paraglider? Those would all really benefit from stronger material, contrary to a gimmicky parka coat.
weatherlight 11y ago
I'm curious. Does it rot?
kwhitefoot 11y ago
Not a single mention so far of space elevators which I always thought was the traditional use for spider silk rope.

57 points by nether 11y ago

Anybody has a clue what for the synthetic spider material would be used? I presume on the outer surface because of its durability, but you still need membrane ala Goretex below it to maintain waterproof & relatively breathable qualities, if its for outdoor activities and not just walking around the town. Haven't seen any details in articles, and can't play video at work :(

richmarr 11y ago
Yep, from the video it looks like the outer shell.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
borkt 11y ago
Goretex or even waterproof fabric is not necessary in many alpine situations where this jacket could be used. A lot of down filled insulating garments do not have any waterproof fabric as it is and instead people prefer to just throw a shell over them if there is any precip.
- saiya-jin 11y ago
  Ah, for down application of course, didn't catch that part. There you want just as windproof/everything resistant as possible, and when it's too hot, you open/put it down. Would be interesting to see comparison of actual benefits compared to current high tech fabrics used, all high-fill lightweight down stuff has some nanotech fabric to keep it light & durable.

TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago

Spiber's website has more details: https://www.spiber.jp/en/endeavor?section=3 https://www.spiber.jp/en/endeavor?section=3 - click on 'Protein Materials' at top, the page seems to start loading there but then jumps to the 'Launching' section.

dnautics 11y ago

Qmonos means "spider web" or "spider nest (lit.)" In Japanese.

amake 11y ago
Only if you are capable of deciphering that gibberish into the actual word, kumo no su (クモの巣).
- zenir 11y ago
  I was really wondering, because Japanese doesn't even have a Q
  - silentplummet 11y ago
    It does have a 九 however.

fit2rule 11y ago

I can't help wonder at the cognitive dissonance of people paying good money to actually be wrapped up in a spiders cocoon. Something about it gives me the serious heebie-jeebies .. ;)

maxerickson 11y ago
Cognitive dissonance would be wearing a silk shirt and refusing to put this coat on. Thinking of a manufactured product as a spider web is just irrational.
TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago
One thought led to another and I imagined these new protein based synthetic fibres being used as building materials, and then some virus being a vector for a mutation to the bacteria used to manufacture (grow) the fibres, and future Earth being cocooned in spider silk. Maybe we'll work out how to get the spiders to spin us a space elevator in exchange for a continuous supply of insects.
- fit2rule 11y ago
  Space-spiders arrive and make contact with Earth, and at the ensuing world party, mistakenly accept the elite rich, coddled in these outfits, as an offering of sacrifice .. the one of probably a few cultural blunders that eventually unite our two species' in co-habitual free-trade of commodities and .. resources.

richmarr 11y ago

Slightly anticlimactic to hear about this exciting new material becoming available, only to find the first application of it is a jacket for rich folks to ponce about a ski slope in. Really? Their other stated target markets seem more interesting: automotive & medical devices (https://www.spiber.jp/en/endeavor https://www.spiber.jp/en/endeavor). Anyone know what this would be used for in the automotive industry? Carbon fibre substitute?

icegreentea 11y ago
I think the very page you linked explains why they're targeting clothing. Performance clothing is a high margin, high turn around market with low regulation and relatively loose quality standards. Spiber can use this as a test bed for scaling their processes before they can go engage more technically and regulatory challenging fields with confidence. This is literally one of the few fields where spider silk has a use, but isn't actually super critical. Unlike say on an medical implant. You want to learn about the quirks of QCing spider silk (whoa.. we really do live in the future) on a parka, not in someone's body.
- richmarr 11y ago
  That makes sense... starting somewhere where you don't need ergulatory approval or medical trials.
tobylane 11y ago
The same could be said for Tesla, they made a high end sports car a few years ago and soon they'll have an affordable sedan.
tinco 11y ago
Just think of it as tricking dumb rich people into sponsoring technical research. Just like Musk does with the Tesla. All this does is enable them go set up a factory line.
- endemic 11y ago
  That's a bit harsh, isn't it? While I'm sure some early adopters only get in for the "cool" factor, others no doubt understand that they are helping subsidize the technology.

etiam 11y ago

Discussion from a couple of weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10463972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10463972

wuschel 11y ago
I wonder in what stage they are in. I once had a side project going to make spider silk chemically. I am still in awe on how the spider developed this amazing tool: the cascade of chemical reactions involved, the spider bio-reactor that spins the chemicals into the spider silk thread. And of course, so little hope to go anywhere near that with classical chemical means. I agree with toufka on that one: "It's hard to see unless you look closely, but this is the beginning of biological nanotechnology." I wonder at what stage they are, and how the parameters of their material compare to naturally woven spilder silk.
- dnautics 11y ago
  I used to work in the amyloid field, which is tangentially related - last I recall the companies were getting to 10~25% the tensile strength of spider silk. Which suggested they were doing something fundamentally wrong. The most obvious thing, to me, was that they were using a chemical called HFIP "hexafluoroisopropanol" to initially dissolve the silk proteins. This solvent forces proteins into a form called alpha helix which in this case abolishes the protein soluble - but the transition to beta sheet (which it needs to be for its strength) is a poor one. The amyloid field was using this a lot, and the results were horrible. The result was extremely irreproducible results, which the field papered over by doing experiments with an n of 1. My graduate thesis was basically doing experiments without HFIP and getting results that actually make sense (with higher Ns). I reached out to Refactored Materials, which at the time was trying to do the spider silk thing, to suggest they play with the procedures that I had developed for amyloid work, but a trip to visit SF and give a lecture fell through. Recently, I was in a conversation about a SF biotech that I think rose from the ashes of RM trying to do the spider silk thing, and apparently they aren't using HFIP (or TFE, trifluoroethanol, a similar solvent with similar effects) anymore, but I didn't get too many more details because these companies tend to keep their techniques close to their chest. Sadly, I still see papers publishing amyloid work with HFIP and TFE going through my google scholar feed (I am now almost 7 years post-PhD).

gypsy_boots 11y ago

When much of the dialogue around spider-silk is its strength properties, it seems like a non sequitur when North Faces goes and makes a parka out of the material. There was no talk of its warmth properties.

Maarten88 11y ago

Funny they create a Parka out of this. If it were really so much stronger and lighter, why not win a Volvo Ocean Race with sails made out of this. I'd personally be in the market for a surfing kite if this is better than the usual spinaker nylon. But I guess there is more money to be made in expensive clothing than in making real progress.

leesalminen 11y ago
Making real progress towards efficient boat sails? I don't live near any body of water that's large enough to sail in, but I do live near several mountains with peaks >14k feet. New winter jackets seem more applicable to me.
- Maarten88 11y ago
  Then maybe they could make a bullet-proof vest for you? A crash-absorbing racecar? A paraglider? Those would all really benefit from stronger material, contrary to a gimmicky parka coat.

weatherlight 11y ago

I'm curious. Does it rot?

kwhitefoot 11y ago

Not a single mention so far of space elevators which I always thought was the traditional use for spider silk rope.