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> How is this a win for Snowden? They can deem the entire program illegal, disband the NSA and put everyone in charge in prison for violating US law and it stil

by jonknee 11y ago

> How is this a win for Snowden? They can deem the entire program illegal, disband the NSA and put everyone in charge in prison for violating US law and it still won't help Snowden get back into the US without cuffs. It's good for Snowden because it means he really was a whistle blower. Things can still be good for him even though he's not back at home.

tptacek 11y ago
Are there serious opponents of Snowden that deny that he was in some real sense a whistleblower? The problem Snowden's critics have is that he wasn't just a whistleblower.
- jonknee 11y ago
  Tons of folks. Here are a couple: Hillary Clinton http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/14/hillary-clinton/clinton-says-nsa-leaker-snowden-failed-use-whistle/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/... > "He broke the laws of the United States," Clinton said. "He could have been a whistleblower. He could have gotten all of the protections of being a whistleblower. He could have raised all the issues that he has raised. And I think there would have been a positive response to that." Bill Nelson http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/man-traitor-article-1.1369682 http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/man-traitor-article-1.136... > "Edward Snowden is not a whistleblower. What Edward Snowden did amounts to an act of treason."
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Grandstanding politicians are not serious critics. I tried to choose the words "serious opponents" to exclude morons.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
      - tptacek 11y ago
        I don't know, but we are now arguing over the semantics of something I wrote earlier, which seems like a pretty boring argument. My point is probably better expressed as "many of Snowden's critics don't dispute that he's a whistleblower, but have a problem with what else he is".
    - jonknee 11y ago
      Well who is serious? Everyone in DC grandstands, that's how you get quoted. Here are a couple from non politicians: Jeremy Bash, a former chief counsel to the House Intelligence Committee: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/52158315/t/former-cia-chief-staff-snowden-not-whistleblower/ http://www.nbcnews.com/id/52158315/t/former-cia-chief-staff-... > “The efforts to make him into a hero, I think, are going to fall flat,” said Bash. “He’s not a whistle blower. You don’t break the law, steal documents and then make a run for the border.” Gabriel Schoenfeld, senior fellow at the Hudson Institute: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/snowdens-hypocrisy-on-russia/2014/02/07/23c403c2-8f51-11e3-b227-12a45d109e03_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/snowdens-hypocrisy-o... > "Whatever the answer, Snowden’s silence about the quasi-dictatorship where he has taken sanctuary is telling. It is yet more evidence, if evidence were needed, that he is not a whistleblower at all"
      - tptacek 11y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10541203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10541203 Fine! I concede the point! There are serious Snowden opponents who believe he's a Soviet spy --- really, there are. I'm glad if this court result, long overdue, establishes that he did some good.
    - rmxt 11y ago
      Somehow I feel that "grandstanding politicians" have a bit more say in how matters play out for Snowden, than do keyboard warriors on HN. Discounting what politicians believe due to their blow-hardiness is ignoring what the middle of the road American opinion likely is. Who are the serious opponents if they aren't the politicians that stand in the way of his return?
- rhino369 11y ago
  Getting one thing right out of thousands of documents doesn't qualify as a whistle blower in my opinion. He leaked information about programs where there is no conceivable argument that the programs are illegal or constitutional. He leaked it because he was against the them politically. If you rob a bank and some of the money you took was stolen from the people, that doesn't make you Robin Hood.
dogma1138 11y ago
The guy is in Russia most likely under quite quite strict supervision, he can't really go any where without looking over his shoulder and jumping at every shadow, and no matter what he is still a wanted criminal by the most powerful nation on the planet. This isn't a win for him, he might be pleased with the outcome that a judge has sided with a plea for a target specific injunction but it doesn't really bring him any closer to being able to live a normal life. Even if it comes to the point in which he wont fear being targeted for either an extradition, rendition or an ol' plain hit by one of the alphabet soup agencies of the US considering that in many cases he admitted that he has a cache of documents hidden somewhere as an insurance allot of which were never released the the press or to the public unredacted he isn't just a target for US intelligence and Law Enforcement organizations he is a target of virtually every intelligence organization out there who would love to get their hands on unredacted NSA documents as well as any potentially actionable intelligence Snowden might have in his head. And heck even if he some how manages to come back to the US under a full pardon or a no prosecution agreement of some sort he won't really be able to live a normal life for the next few decades until every bit of the information he may or may not have is no longer relevant.
- guelo 11y ago
  When he blew the whistle to the press he knew he was in great danger of rotting in a prison for the rest of his life but he did it anyways because he was a patriot and he considered the risk to be worth it to save his country. That the whole thing worked, the NSA's policies have been declared illegal, means that his sacrifice was not in vain.
- frandroid 11y ago
  You're a pedant. It's _A_ win, not _total victory_. Carry on.
- kup0 11y ago
  Sure, if you only interpret "win" as "able to come home". Your entire rationale regarding it "not being a win" is through this narrow lens. Maybe it's a "win" philosophically, judicially (however small), psychologically. In some sense, a validation of his efforts. The article itself doesn't even mention whether or not this would affect his ability to re-enter the US without consequence, do I don't see why you're hanging so hard on that point.

by jonknee 11y ago

tptacek 11y ago

Are there serious opponents of Snowden that deny that he was in some real sense a whistleblower? The problem Snowden's critics have is that he wasn't just a whistleblower.

jonknee 11y ago
Tons of folks. Here are a couple: Hillary Clinton http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/14/hillary-clinton/clinton-says-nsa-leaker-snowden-failed-use-whistle/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/... > "He broke the laws of the United States," Clinton said. "He could have been a whistleblower. He could have gotten all of the protections of being a whistleblower. He could have raised all the issues that he has raised. And I think there would have been a positive response to that." Bill Nelson http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/man-traitor-article-1.1369682 http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/man-traitor-article-1.136... > "Edward Snowden is not a whistleblower. What Edward Snowden did amounts to an act of treason."
- tptacek 11y ago
  Grandstanding politicians are not serious critics. I tried to choose the words "serious opponents" to exclude morons.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
    - tptacek 11y ago
      I don't know, but we are now arguing over the semantics of something I wrote earlier, which seems like a pretty boring argument. My point is probably better expressed as "many of Snowden's critics don't dispute that he's a whistleblower, but have a problem with what else he is".
  - jonknee 11y ago
    Well who is serious? Everyone in DC grandstands, that's how you get quoted. Here are a couple from non politicians: Jeremy Bash, a former chief counsel to the House Intelligence Committee: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/52158315/t/former-cia-chief-staff-snowden-not-whistleblower/ http://www.nbcnews.com/id/52158315/t/former-cia-chief-staff-... > “The efforts to make him into a hero, I think, are going to fall flat,” said Bash. “He’s not a whistle blower. You don’t break the law, steal documents and then make a run for the border.” Gabriel Schoenfeld, senior fellow at the Hudson Institute: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/snowdens-hypocrisy-on-russia/2014/02/07/23c403c2-8f51-11e3-b227-12a45d109e03_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/snowdens-hypocrisy-o... > "Whatever the answer, Snowden’s silence about the quasi-dictatorship where he has taken sanctuary is telling. It is yet more evidence, if evidence were needed, that he is not a whistleblower at all"
    - tptacek 11y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10541203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10541203 Fine! I concede the point! There are serious Snowden opponents who believe he's a Soviet spy --- really, there are. I'm glad if this court result, long overdue, establishes that he did some good.
  - rmxt 11y ago
    Somehow I feel that "grandstanding politicians" have a bit more say in how matters play out for Snowden, than do keyboard warriors on HN. Discounting what politicians believe due to their blow-hardiness is ignoring what the middle of the road American opinion likely is. Who are the serious opponents if they aren't the politicians that stand in the way of his return?
rhino369 11y ago
Getting one thing right out of thousands of documents doesn't qualify as a whistle blower in my opinion. He leaked information about programs where there is no conceivable argument that the programs are illegal or constitutional. He leaked it because he was against the them politically. If you rob a bank and some of the money you took was stolen from the people, that doesn't make you Robin Hood.

dogma1138 11y ago

The guy is in Russia most likely under quite quite strict supervision, he can't really go any where without looking over his shoulder and jumping at every shadow, and no matter what he is still a wanted criminal by the most powerful nation on the planet. This isn't a win for him, he might be pleased with the outcome that a judge has sided with a plea for a target specific injunction but it doesn't really bring him any closer to being able to live a normal life. Even if it comes to the point in which he wont fear being targeted for either an extradition, rendition or an ol' plain hit by one of the alphabet soup agencies of the US considering that in many cases he admitted that he has a cache of documents hidden somewhere as an insurance allot of which were never released the the press or to the public unredacted he isn't just a target for US intelligence and Law Enforcement organizations he is a target of virtually every intelligence organization out there who would love to get their hands on unredacted NSA documents as well as any potentially actionable intelligence Snowden might have in his head. And heck even if he some how manages to come back to the US under a full pardon or a no prosecution agreement of some sort he won't really be able to live a normal life for the next few decades until every bit of the information he may or may not have is no longer relevant.

guelo 11y ago
When he blew the whistle to the press he knew he was in great danger of rotting in a prison for the rest of his life but he did it anyways because he was a patriot and he considered the risk to be worth it to save his country. That the whole thing worked, the NSA's policies have been declared illegal, means that his sacrifice was not in vain.
frandroid 11y ago
You're a pedant. It's _A_ win, not _total victory_. Carry on.
kup0 11y ago
Sure, if you only interpret "win" as "able to come home". Your entire rationale regarding it "not being a win" is through this narrow lens. Maybe it's a "win" philosophically, judicially (however small), psychologically. In some sense, a validation of his efforts. The article itself doesn't even mention whether or not this would affect his ability to re-enter the US without consequence, do I don't see why you're hanging so hard on that point.