2 ms·

As long as an economic incentive exists, people are going to take advantage of it. Wagging your finger and moralizing is only going to convince people who proba

by imgabe 11y ago

As long as an economic incentive exists, people are going to take advantage of it. Wagging your finger and moralizing is only going to convince people who probably weren't going to do it anyway. If you want to change behavior, you have to change the incentives. Last time I checked, AirBnB was a publicly accessible website. It should be trivial for a landlord to see if their property is on there and enforce the penalties if it is. Another comment mentioned that landlords are inserting language into leases that they get the profits from AirBnB if it's used. That seems like a reasonable response to me.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
The difference between homo economicus and homo sapiens is that the latter can opt to not follow some economic incentives (at least those sufficiently weak), and to maintain other types of incentive structures (like social, cultural). A guy who's subletting his place on AirBnB in clear violation of his contract is an asshole. A douche bag. I'm calling our figurative guy names not because I need to vent out. I'm providing a social disincentive for such behaviour. The vaguely defined terms like "asshat" are actually part of the way society incentivizes one to behave in a particular way. Mostly, it incentivizes cooperation (as in Prisoner's Dilemma) and disincentivizes defection. In the West, such incentive structures are individually much weaker than economic ones - but still, when they are aggregated, they form a powerful force. Services like AirBnB and Uber unfortunately slowly erode social/cultural incentives, turning citizens into competitors instead of cooperators. > Another comment mentioned that landlords are inserting language into leases that they get the profits from AirBnB if it's used. That seems like a reasonable response to me. And this is the bad outcome. The end result is the same as before AirBnB subletting became a thing, but now the contracts have additional clause that will probably be phrased vaguely enough to destroy some use cases that would be beneficial for both parties. That's the bad result I'm talking about - the side that's being cheated won't just lie down and admit defeat, they'll take up arms and defend themselves. In the end things are worse for everyone involved. > Wagging your finger and moralizing is only going to convince people who probably weren't going to do it anyway. If you want to change behavior, you have to change the incentives. I am changing the incentives (in a very small way - armchair activism, I know). I'm trying to highlight the problems in hope that some readers who may not have noticed them before will notice them now and opt out of contract-breaking subletting, and will discourage others from doing so as well. It's working the foundations.
- imgabe 11y ago
  > Services like AirBnB and Uber unfortunately slowly erode social/cultural incentives, turning citizens into competitors instead of cooperators. They erode the incentives that maintain the interests of the status quo, but they provide strong incentives to cooperate. They introduce competition to taxi services and hotels, but they increase cooperation between consumers and Uber drivers, and AirBnB hosts and guests. Maybe AirBnB provides an incentive not to cooperate with the landlord in his desire to restrict how many guests you can have and how long they can stay, but it provides a strong incentive to cooperate with people who need a place to stay and can't afford a hotel. I don't see any landlords ignoring economic incentives and offering below-market rent in the spirit of "cooperation". Indeed, they are quite happy to kick out rent controlled tenants at the earliest opportunity in order to bring in more money, regardless of how many people call them an asshole or a douchebag. > And this is the bad outcome. The end result is the same as before AirBnB subletting became a thing, but now the contracts have additional clause that will probably be phrased vaguely enough to destroy some use cases that would be beneficial for both parties. That's just pure speculation. Until we see the language we have no idea what cases it destroys or doesn't, or how vaguely worded it is. If there's a use that's beneficial to both parties, it should be possible to find a party who's willing to agree to it in order to receive that benefit, if the market is allowed to operate. > I am changing the incentives (in a very small way - armchair activism, I know). I'm trying to highlight the problems in hope that some readers who may not have noticed them before will notice them now and opt out of contract-breaking subletting, and will discourage others from doing so as well. It's working the foundations. If there is in fact a problem, it should be easy enough to point out the facts of the damage that's being done without resorting to calling people names like douchebag and asshole. Such insults usually come out when there isn't any logical argument to be made.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    > They introduce competition to taxi services and hotels, but they increase cooperation between consumers and Uber drivers, and AirBnB hosts and guests. Yes, the point being that they give value to one group (their clients) while dumping externalities on everyone else. This is not something that society is supposed to tolerate; the company doing that should either stop dumping externalities or at least pay everyone else to compensate (taxes are one way of achieving that). I'm not denying AirBnB/Uber are providing a valuable service to their customers. They do. They provide excellent and inexpensive service. At a cost for everyone else. Hence as I wrote in my original comment, it's burning trust to produce dollars. > That's just pure speculation. Until we see the language we have no idea what cases it destroys or doesn't, or how vaguely worded it is. If there's a use that's beneficial to both parties, it should be possible to find a party who's willing to agree to it in order to receive that benefit, if the market is allowed to operate. I didn't want to elaborate on that in order to keep the comment relatively short. But it's not "just a speculation", it's the obvious consequence of allowing the market to cooperate. If everyone bans AirBnB specifically in the contract, the existence of competition on the market implies that renters will soon have a problem with WaterMattressAndSupper. In order not to turn a contract into ever increasing blacklist, the point will have to be phrased vaguely. > If there is in fact a problem, it should be easy enough to point out the facts of the damage that's being done without resorting to calling people names like douchebag and asshole. Such insults usually come out when there isn't any logical argument to be made. There are arguments to be made, and there are being made. A lot of practical and economical ones. I was just trying to point out that insults like "asshole" don't mean "I have no arguments so I'll curse you instead". They're shorthands for "you're breaking an implicit social contract".

by imgabe 11y ago

TeMPOraL 11y ago

The difference between homo economicus and homo sapiens is that the latter can opt to not follow some economic incentives (at least those sufficiently weak), and to maintain other types of incentive structures (like social, cultural). A guy who's subletting his place on AirBnB in clear violation of his contract is an asshole. A douche bag. I'm calling our figurative guy names not because I need to vent out. I'm providing a social disincentive for such behaviour. The vaguely defined terms like "asshat" are actually part of the way society incentivizes one to behave in a particular way. Mostly, it incentivizes cooperation (as in Prisoner's Dilemma) and disincentivizes defection. In the West, such incentive structures are individually much weaker than economic ones - but still, when they are aggregated, they form a powerful force. Services like AirBnB and Uber unfortunately slowly erode social/cultural incentives, turning citizens into competitors instead of cooperators. > Another comment mentioned that landlords are inserting language into leases that they get the profits from AirBnB if it's used. That seems like a reasonable response to me. And this is the bad outcome. The end result is the same as before AirBnB subletting became a thing, but now the contracts have additional clause that will probably be phrased vaguely enough to destroy some use cases that would be beneficial for both parties. That's the bad result I'm talking about - the side that's being cheated won't just lie down and admit defeat, they'll take up arms and defend themselves. In the end things are worse for everyone involved. > Wagging your finger and moralizing is only going to convince people who probably weren't going to do it anyway. If you want to change behavior, you have to change the incentives. I am changing the incentives (in a very small way - armchair activism, I know). I'm trying to highlight the problems in hope that some readers who may not have noticed them before will notice them now and opt out of contract-breaking subletting, and will discourage others from doing so as well. It's working the foundations.

imgabe 11y ago
> Services like AirBnB and Uber unfortunately slowly erode social/cultural incentives, turning citizens into competitors instead of cooperators. They erode the incentives that maintain the interests of the status quo, but they provide strong incentives to cooperate. They introduce competition to taxi services and hotels, but they increase cooperation between consumers and Uber drivers, and AirBnB hosts and guests. Maybe AirBnB provides an incentive not to cooperate with the landlord in his desire to restrict how many guests you can have and how long they can stay, but it provides a strong incentive to cooperate with people who need a place to stay and can't afford a hotel. I don't see any landlords ignoring economic incentives and offering below-market rent in the spirit of "cooperation". Indeed, they are quite happy to kick out rent controlled tenants at the earliest opportunity in order to bring in more money, regardless of how many people call them an asshole or a douchebag. > And this is the bad outcome. The end result is the same as before AirBnB subletting became a thing, but now the contracts have additional clause that will probably be phrased vaguely enough to destroy some use cases that would be beneficial for both parties. That's just pure speculation. Until we see the language we have no idea what cases it destroys or doesn't, or how vaguely worded it is. If there's a use that's beneficial to both parties, it should be possible to find a party who's willing to agree to it in order to receive that benefit, if the market is allowed to operate. > I am changing the incentives (in a very small way - armchair activism, I know). I'm trying to highlight the problems in hope that some readers who may not have noticed them before will notice them now and opt out of contract-breaking subletting, and will discourage others from doing so as well. It's working the foundations. If there is in fact a problem, it should be easy enough to point out the facts of the damage that's being done without resorting to calling people names like douchebag and asshole. Such insults usually come out when there isn't any logical argument to be made.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  > They introduce competition to taxi services and hotels, but they increase cooperation between consumers and Uber drivers, and AirBnB hosts and guests. Yes, the point being that they give value to one group (their clients) while dumping externalities on everyone else. This is not something that society is supposed to tolerate; the company doing that should either stop dumping externalities or at least pay everyone else to compensate (taxes are one way of achieving that). I'm not denying AirBnB/Uber are providing a valuable service to their customers. They do. They provide excellent and inexpensive service. At a cost for everyone else. Hence as I wrote in my original comment, it's burning trust to produce dollars. > That's just pure speculation. Until we see the language we have no idea what cases it destroys or doesn't, or how vaguely worded it is. If there's a use that's beneficial to both parties, it should be possible to find a party who's willing to agree to it in order to receive that benefit, if the market is allowed to operate. I didn't want to elaborate on that in order to keep the comment relatively short. But it's not "just a speculation", it's the obvious consequence of allowing the market to cooperate. If everyone bans AirBnB specifically in the contract, the existence of competition on the market implies that renters will soon have a problem with WaterMattressAndSupper. In order not to turn a contract into ever increasing blacklist, the point will have to be phrased vaguely. > If there is in fact a problem, it should be easy enough to point out the facts of the damage that's being done without resorting to calling people names like douchebag and asshole. Such insults usually come out when there isn't any logical argument to be made. There are arguments to be made, and there are being made. A lot of practical and economical ones. I was just trying to point out that insults like "asshole" don't mean "I have no arguments so I'll curse you instead". They're shorthands for "you're breaking an implicit social contract".