11 ms·

Indian here who topped his university CS bachelor degree. 95% of my class (in a #1 state university) cheated their way through exams and don't give a shit about

Indian here who topped his university CS bachelor degree. 95% of my class (in a #1 state university) cheated their way through exams and don't give a shit about the beauty of algorithms or programming. Today almost all of my classmates are in the US: thanks to H1B. I want to, but I could not: because I couldn't afford to pay for a Masters degree in USA back then nor did I want to do the shit work that is offered in these consulting companies (TCS, Infosys). I ended up getting a MS and PhD in a top non-US university that funded me and I'm still finding it difficult to join a US company, thanks to H1B being gamed. There are two ways to game the H1B, the NYT article covered only one of them. The other is the 20,000 visas given to those who finished a Masters/PhD degree in USA. If they break out the numbers for these, they will find something that is an open secret known to all Indians: this 20K too is totally dominated by Indians. Among my family and friends back in India, how to game the H1B's other 20K visas is also an open secret. These mediocre-to-hopeless students from India just apply to some university in the US for a Masters. Either it is a shit-degree from a mediocre university or a shit-degree from a shit-university (most of them seem to be in Texas). Doesn't matter. They get the admission, pay the fees, pass the course. Then they take internships to stay on after the degree, keep applying and taking interviews relentlessly until something works out. I believe they can stay on in the US for a few years by extending their visa in this way, until they get a H1B.

kamaal 11y ago
Not sure what your point is. You seem to be suggesting that almost anyone who refuses to rote memorize math textbooks and score big marks in Exams(Which is exactly how the Indian educations system works, anyway) must never ever be given a chance to work overseas, ever. Not only are you wrong, you are off by a big margin. Firstly, mugging up pointless trivia and math theorems hasn't anything remotely to do with productivity. Which is the only thing that matters in workplaces today. You might be the biggest knowledge repository in your college, you might know everything there is to know if the books. But your knowledge is replaceable by a Google search, or worst anything that you can be learned by any guy in India with a smart phone and a internet connection(both very cheap and accessible today) without ever having to go to a college. In a world with such levels flattening, only thing that counts is ability to get things done with maximum levels of productivity. >>Today almost all of my classmates are in the US: thanks to H1B. You should be happy about it, rather than cribbing about it. >>nor did I want to do the shit work that is offered in these consulting companies (TCS, Infosys). The very fact that you consider some work beneath you is speaking volumes about your attitude and work ethic. Or may be explains why people like you despite being intelligent are often beaten by every other guy who is ready to burn 20 hours a day to get work done and make a living doing whatever is possible, working and making the best of whatever opportunity comes there way. People in those companies you describe aren't doing 'shit work' as you describe, they do whatever software work everybody else is doing for a lesser salary. Because that is the only opportunity they get, and trust me even after that they don't crib. They remain thankful for the opportunity in a country where people are dying of hunger, they use that opportunity to learn, coming from small towns and lower middle class to poor families they work 20 hours a day, building their career brick by brick making the best of whatever comes their way. Only to be later face people like you who deride the hard work they do to get there. >>I ended up getting a MS and PhD in a top non-US university that funded me and I'm still finding it difficult to join a US company, thanks to H1B being gamed. You really must stop blaming the whole world from your problems. >>These mediocre-to-hopeless students from India just apply to some university in the US for a Masters. You really should be thinking very hard how all these people you think are below you are able to make a living, while you aren't. >>Either it is a shit-degree from a mediocre university or a shit-degree from a shit-university (most of them seem to be in Texas). Doesn't matter. True thing, because what matter is what you are ready to sacrifice as immigrant in foreign nation with a hefty student loan. How much you are ready to burn your self to get where you want to be. Its not about intelligence or grades, its more than that.
- throwaway29 11y ago
  I accept that I should have elaborated my point by using better words than shit. I am from a small town in India and my family was lower middle class. My parents burnt up all they had just to pay for my Bachelor degree. That is the reason I could not afford a Masters degree in the US. And there surely are many students from my background who worked hard to get to where they are. That does not take away from what I see: Indians who have zero interest in computer science or even in their own work are grabbing the H1B of Indians (or Americans) who have that love and work hard.
  - kamaal 11y ago
    I get it. So now repeat the same intensity of effort you applied in your education, in you your work. The results will follow. And please don't ever think you are some precious snowflake because of your university or grades. Things don't work that way in the real world and people learn it the hard way as they age. >>Indians who have zero interest in computer science or even in their own work are grabbing the H1B of Indians (or Americans) who have that love and work hard. I judge love towards one's work by commitment and what they are ready to do to get there and not by their ability to memorize trivia. On any given day I will hire a TCS/Infosys services guy with 3 years of experience than a M.S or even a Phd, with no experience- Very simply because, that guy would have lived and breathed struggles under tough budgets and demanding timelines. People with such a background can generally learn and do anything. When compared to graduates who expect special things to happen to them because of their marksheet and university. Either way, India or US. I can assure you- you are going to see ordinary hard working people will get far ahead of most engineers because of a strong work ethic. This should not surprise you even in time to come. The same applies to US too, don't expect basic things like these to change by changing countries. You may go to the US get a job. But you might find a Indian cab driver after a few years far ahead of you financially.
    - abc_lisper 11y ago
      I think you are being a little unfair to throwaway29. He specifically talks about the beauty and the joy of CS, which I think is an excellent attitude. And throwaway29, you seem to argue that it is unfair to you that you could top your university but not get a H-1B. Here's my personal take on it. It is going to be a little harsh. - First things first, Yeah, it is unfair to you. No question about it. A person of modest means has less chances to go ahead in life. Let not the hopefuls with rose colored glasses tell you life is going to be fair. That if you work hard, magic happens..There is just as much truth to it as flipping a coin. Look around. There are a lot of people who were born with a silver spoon, inherited property that is "now" worth a lot of money. And there are people who cannot seem to lift themselves out of their harsh life. There isn't a rule book to follow that guarantees anything. - The sharp sting of pain you may feel right now is because of your social conditioning; that you were led to believe that it ain't so, that hard work works! It may or may not. No body knows, nor anybody is responsible nor will anybody will hold themselves accountable because they said so. - Now that we have established that, I want you to really think why you want to go the US. Make money, learn or have a comfortable life? As Kamaal said, you are less likely to become rich as an engineer. If you wanted comfortable life, define for yourself what comfort is. There are downsides to being in the US. I have been here for 13 years now. No body talks about it, but you will feel lonely here. If you are one of "us" introverted types, who will keep to themselves, buddy, I have news for you. It is going to be very harsh. That loneliness will affect the way you think. Also, I haven't lit a Diwali cracker in all these years. You got to think about that. - Instead, if you want to learn things, there ain't a place like US anywhere. Concepts, things, ideas that seem unreachable are routinely done by people here. There you don't have feel envious about your H-1B brethren. They are totally missing out on it. They are like cattle in a castle, who know no different, nor feel any difference. They are going to pee and poop on the throne without realizing it, just like cattle. There are blindingly smart people here. If you don't get to work with some of them I feel you missed out the best thing that you can get by living here. TL;DR - There are negatives and positives about living in the US. Think carefully if you really want to be here. And don't expend energy feeling bad about yourself. Life is finite, harsh and unfair.
BiologyRules 11y ago
You make an interesting point. A master's in the United States, correct me if I am wrong, costs around $50,000. That sum is large for American students, but that sum seems unimaginable for middle class foreigners. Are we getting the 'best and the brightest' with the H1-B (which we all agree is a good thing), or the richest and wealthiest willing to pay whatever it takes to get a visa?
- negrit 11y ago
  H-1B visas are paid by the employers not the employees.
  - BiologyRules 11y ago
    Yes, but the original poster indicated that a masters from an American institution is typically required for STEM workers from developing countries. Only the wealthiest, not necessarily the best, can afford those masters degrees.
    - kamaal 11y ago
      A lot of lower middle class people from India do come to study in the US. But its a very difficult struggle though.
      - BiologyRules 11y ago
        Define lower middle class -- the median household income in India and China is $3000 and $6000 respectively. What is the average net worth of the households who send students to America?
- throwaway29 11y ago
  Any system that can be gamed, will be gamed once demand is more than supply. Maybe 10 years ago, the best and the brightest of Indians/Chinese, who studied at the top US schools would have got their H1B in this 20K advanced-degree quota. Not true today. Though the average Indian/Chinese is poor, there are tens of millions of parents in India/China today who can afford the $50K "investment" for their non-so-bright child. I see this among my affluent relatives and friends in India. There is an easy way to check this: plotting the applicants of this 20K advanced-degree quota against the US News/other university rankings of their university. An easy but not perfect way to fix this would be to give the 20K slots to the applicants from the highest ranking universities.
kwisatzh 11y ago
If you have a PhD, you may be able to apply for the O1 visa. I came back to the US using the O1 and have many friends who have PhDs from top EU univs who have made the move to the US via the O1 visa. Try it out.
- shas3 11y ago
  Applying for an O1 as a researcher is an onerous process with a poor success rate. Some companies that require PhDs with highly specialized skills are resorting to this to bypass the H1B quota, with mixed success (based on 3 anecdotes).
  - throwaway29 11y ago
    Also, it doesn't help that the O1 visa mentions Nobel Prize and Oscars in its description. Only a handful of non-Americans in the world would qualify in any given year going by these qualifications.
    - kwisatzh 11y ago
      Well, if you believe you are qualified and have graduated from a top non-US univ with a PhD and have done research, O1 isn't as hard as it sounds. I'm from India and spent a few years in Europe at a lab post-PhD and came back on an O1. Many of my colleagues form the EU lab have made their way to Silicon Valley via O1. It is difficult, but you don't need a Nobel/Fields/Turing to get that visa.
  - kwisatzh 11y ago
    Well, pretty much most people I know have had successes with O1 -- myself included. I work at a SV startup and while the process is onerous, if one is qualified, O1 is quicker to get and has fewer constraints attached to it. OP of this post was bemoaning that while he/she, a PhD couldn't get in the country, others less qualified than him/her could get in via H1B gaming. I merely suggested an alternative. If the OP indeed thinks he/she is more qualified, than the OP could apply via the O1 route.
ninja_to_be 11y ago
One thing that helps these 'mediocre-to-hopeless' students get by -- are the so called consulting companies that get them short-time contracting positions in major companies like Intel/Amazon/Intuit/../.. etc. They fake their profiles with a many years of fake experience, fake internships and try to fake the background checks as well. These consulting companies take care of all the visa processing etc for these guys. The major companies benefit from not having to take care of all the hiring processes, visa processes, employee benefits, holidays/vacations for the contractors. They also consider these employees expendable. When something unfortunate happens and these guys end up getting pink slips, the consultancies get them another job at another employer willing to take them.
- IndianAstronaut 11y ago
  The fake issue can easily be handled if employers had stringent interview guidelines.
dennisgorelik 11y ago
> nor did I want to do the shit work That means you do not want to come to the US enough in order to go through unpleasant work that employers are willing to sponsor you for. Your choice. Do you think you got a better deal in India in the end?
- WildUtah 11y ago
  There are more countries in the world than the USA and India. Good programmers find it much easier to immigrate to Mexico or Canada and have a very good life there.

kamaal 11y ago

Not sure what your point is. You seem to be suggesting that almost anyone who refuses to rote memorize math textbooks and score big marks in Exams(Which is exactly how the Indian educations system works, anyway) must never ever be given a chance to work overseas, ever. Not only are you wrong, you are off by a big margin. Firstly, mugging up pointless trivia and math theorems hasn't anything remotely to do with productivity. Which is the only thing that matters in workplaces today. You might be the biggest knowledge repository in your college, you might know everything there is to know if the books. But your knowledge is replaceable by a Google search, or worst anything that you can be learned by any guy in India with a smart phone and a internet connection(both very cheap and accessible today) without ever having to go to a college. In a world with such levels flattening, only thing that counts is ability to get things done with maximum levels of productivity. >>Today almost all of my classmates are in the US: thanks to H1B. You should be happy about it, rather than cribbing about it. >>nor did I want to do the shit work that is offered in these consulting companies (TCS, Infosys). The very fact that you consider some work beneath you is speaking volumes about your attitude and work ethic. Or may be explains why people like you despite being intelligent are often beaten by every other guy who is ready to burn 20 hours a day to get work done and make a living doing whatever is possible, working and making the best of whatever opportunity comes there way. People in those companies you describe aren't doing 'shit work' as you describe, they do whatever software work everybody else is doing for a lesser salary. Because that is the only opportunity they get, and trust me even after that they don't crib. They remain thankful for the opportunity in a country where people are dying of hunger, they use that opportunity to learn, coming from small towns and lower middle class to poor families they work 20 hours a day, building their career brick by brick making the best of whatever comes their way. Only to be later face people like you who deride the hard work they do to get there. >>I ended up getting a MS and PhD in a top non-US university that funded me and I'm still finding it difficult to join a US company, thanks to H1B being gamed. You really must stop blaming the whole world from your problems. >>These mediocre-to-hopeless students from India just apply to some university in the US for a Masters. You really should be thinking very hard how all these people you think are below you are able to make a living, while you aren't. >>Either it is a shit-degree from a mediocre university or a shit-degree from a shit-university (most of them seem to be in Texas). Doesn't matter. True thing, because what matter is what you are ready to sacrifice as immigrant in foreign nation with a hefty student loan. How much you are ready to burn your self to get where you want to be. Its not about intelligence or grades, its more than that.

throwaway29 11y ago
I accept that I should have elaborated my point by using better words than shit. I am from a small town in India and my family was lower middle class. My parents burnt up all they had just to pay for my Bachelor degree. That is the reason I could not afford a Masters degree in the US. And there surely are many students from my background who worked hard to get to where they are. That does not take away from what I see: Indians who have zero interest in computer science or even in their own work are grabbing the H1B of Indians (or Americans) who have that love and work hard.
- kamaal 11y ago
  I get it. So now repeat the same intensity of effort you applied in your education, in you your work. The results will follow. And please don't ever think you are some precious snowflake because of your university or grades. Things don't work that way in the real world and people learn it the hard way as they age. >>Indians who have zero interest in computer science or even in their own work are grabbing the H1B of Indians (or Americans) who have that love and work hard. I judge love towards one's work by commitment and what they are ready to do to get there and not by their ability to memorize trivia. On any given day I will hire a TCS/Infosys services guy with 3 years of experience than a M.S or even a Phd, with no experience- Very simply because, that guy would have lived and breathed struggles under tough budgets and demanding timelines. People with such a background can generally learn and do anything. When compared to graduates who expect special things to happen to them because of their marksheet and university. Either way, India or US. I can assure you- you are going to see ordinary hard working people will get far ahead of most engineers because of a strong work ethic. This should not surprise you even in time to come. The same applies to US too, don't expect basic things like these to change by changing countries. You may go to the US get a job. But you might find a Indian cab driver after a few years far ahead of you financially.
  - abc_lisper 11y ago
    I think you are being a little unfair to throwaway29. He specifically talks about the beauty and the joy of CS, which I think is an excellent attitude. And throwaway29, you seem to argue that it is unfair to you that you could top your university but not get a H-1B. Here's my personal take on it. It is going to be a little harsh. - First things first, Yeah, it is unfair to you. No question about it. A person of modest means has less chances to go ahead in life. Let not the hopefuls with rose colored glasses tell you life is going to be fair. That if you work hard, magic happens..There is just as much truth to it as flipping a coin. Look around. There are a lot of people who were born with a silver spoon, inherited property that is "now" worth a lot of money. And there are people who cannot seem to lift themselves out of their harsh life. There isn't a rule book to follow that guarantees anything. - The sharp sting of pain you may feel right now is because of your social conditioning; that you were led to believe that it ain't so, that hard work works! It may or may not. No body knows, nor anybody is responsible nor will anybody will hold themselves accountable because they said so. - Now that we have established that, I want you to really think why you want to go the US. Make money, learn or have a comfortable life? As Kamaal said, you are less likely to become rich as an engineer. If you wanted comfortable life, define for yourself what comfort is. There are downsides to being in the US. I have been here for 13 years now. No body talks about it, but you will feel lonely here. If you are one of "us" introverted types, who will keep to themselves, buddy, I have news for you. It is going to be very harsh. That loneliness will affect the way you think. Also, I haven't lit a Diwali cracker in all these years. You got to think about that. - Instead, if you want to learn things, there ain't a place like US anywhere. Concepts, things, ideas that seem unreachable are routinely done by people here. There you don't have feel envious about your H-1B brethren. They are totally missing out on it. They are like cattle in a castle, who know no different, nor feel any difference. They are going to pee and poop on the throne without realizing it, just like cattle. There are blindingly smart people here. If you don't get to work with some of them I feel you missed out the best thing that you can get by living here. TL;DR - There are negatives and positives about living in the US. Think carefully if you really want to be here. And don't expend energy feeling bad about yourself. Life is finite, harsh and unfair.

BiologyRules 11y ago

You make an interesting point. A master's in the United States, correct me if I am wrong, costs around $50,000. That sum is large for American students, but that sum seems unimaginable for middle class foreigners. Are we getting the 'best and the brightest' with the H1-B (which we all agree is a good thing), or the richest and wealthiest willing to pay whatever it takes to get a visa?

negrit 11y ago
H-1B visas are paid by the employers not the employees.
- BiologyRules 11y ago
  Yes, but the original poster indicated that a masters from an American institution is typically required for STEM workers from developing countries. Only the wealthiest, not necessarily the best, can afford those masters degrees.
  - kamaal 11y ago
    A lot of lower middle class people from India do come to study in the US. But its a very difficult struggle though.
    - BiologyRules 11y ago
      Define lower middle class -- the median household income in India and China is $3000 and $6000 respectively. What is the average net worth of the households who send students to America?
throwaway29 11y ago
Any system that can be gamed, will be gamed once demand is more than supply. Maybe 10 years ago, the best and the brightest of Indians/Chinese, who studied at the top US schools would have got their H1B in this 20K advanced-degree quota. Not true today. Though the average Indian/Chinese is poor, there are tens of millions of parents in India/China today who can afford the $50K "investment" for their non-so-bright child. I see this among my affluent relatives and friends in India. There is an easy way to check this: plotting the applicants of this 20K advanced-degree quota against the US News/other university rankings of their university. An easy but not perfect way to fix this would be to give the 20K slots to the applicants from the highest ranking universities.

kwisatzh 11y ago

If you have a PhD, you may be able to apply for the O1 visa. I came back to the US using the O1 and have many friends who have PhDs from top EU univs who have made the move to the US via the O1 visa. Try it out.

shas3 11y ago
Applying for an O1 as a researcher is an onerous process with a poor success rate. Some companies that require PhDs with highly specialized skills are resorting to this to bypass the H1B quota, with mixed success (based on 3 anecdotes).
- throwaway29 11y ago
  Also, it doesn't help that the O1 visa mentions Nobel Prize and Oscars in its description. Only a handful of non-Americans in the world would qualify in any given year going by these qualifications.
  - kwisatzh 11y ago
    Well, if you believe you are qualified and have graduated from a top non-US univ with a PhD and have done research, O1 isn't as hard as it sounds. I'm from India and spent a few years in Europe at a lab post-PhD and came back on an O1. Many of my colleagues form the EU lab have made their way to Silicon Valley via O1. It is difficult, but you don't need a Nobel/Fields/Turing to get that visa.
- kwisatzh 11y ago
  Well, pretty much most people I know have had successes with O1 -- myself included. I work at a SV startup and while the process is onerous, if one is qualified, O1 is quicker to get and has fewer constraints attached to it. OP of this post was bemoaning that while he/she, a PhD couldn't get in the country, others less qualified than him/her could get in via H1B gaming. I merely suggested an alternative. If the OP indeed thinks he/she is more qualified, than the OP could apply via the O1 route.

ninja_to_be 11y ago

One thing that helps these 'mediocre-to-hopeless' students get by -- are the so called consulting companies that get them short-time contracting positions in major companies like Intel/Amazon/Intuit/../.. etc. They fake their profiles with a many years of fake experience, fake internships and try to fake the background checks as well. These consulting companies take care of all the visa processing etc for these guys. The major companies benefit from not having to take care of all the hiring processes, visa processes, employee benefits, holidays/vacations for the contractors. They also consider these employees expendable. When something unfortunate happens and these guys end up getting pink slips, the consultancies get them another job at another employer willing to take them.

IndianAstronaut 11y ago
The fake issue can easily be handled if employers had stringent interview guidelines.

dennisgorelik 11y ago

> nor did I want to do the shit work That means you do not want to come to the US enough in order to go through unpleasant work that employers are willing to sponsor you for. Your choice. Do you think you got a better deal in India in the end?

WildUtah 11y ago
There are more countries in the world than the USA and India. Good programmers find it much easier to immigrate to Mexico or Canada and have a very good life there.