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Ladies and gentle, witness the justification of the dystopian future before you. Here is my problem, or my main problem, with this line of thinking. America is

Ladies and gentle, witness the justification of the dystopian future before you. Here is my problem, or my main problem, with this line of thinking. America is founded upon the idea that individual liberties are basis for all other liberties, and while I can understand the reasoning that the national security apparatus finds the shifting sands of power from nation states to individuals a potential security threat, they have embraced this thought process without bringing it to the people in an upfront manner as should be properly done in a constitutional representative democracy. This model of thinking, at least in the USA, is a complete rewriting of what we consider our government should be, and a rewiting that is happening with no informing the people, and one that will most certainly have more unintended consequences than anyone can yet imagine. I am certain of one thing, and that is the worst things will befall those who so eagerly trade liberty for security, at the hands of those who promise to protect.

sawwit 11y ago
I think it depends on whether the security apparatus is a central or decentralized one. Perhaps one would need to decentralize the decisions of individuals, but I can't think of a particular implementation of that idea.
TeMPOraL 11y ago
I think stuff isn't being rewritten - people are starting to figure it out by themselves, at least those who understand the technologies we're talking about here. Honestly, it doesn't matter what "idea" America was founded upon. The whole talk of "trading liberty for security" has become a religious dogma now, when originally it was meant only as an observation about a narrow group of cases. We will have to have more centralized security and more surveillance if we want to survive our technological growth. I'd much prefer to live in such "dystopia"[0] than in a country whose people got sick and died believing in the idea that individual liberties of a random dude with access to an advanced genome sequencing machine are basis for all other liberties. [0] - personally I'm rooting for something closer to the United Federation of Planets.
- arca_vorago 11y ago
  "Honestly, it doesn't matter what "idea" America was founded upon." On the contrary, I think it is of the utmost importance that America was founded by We The People and that if you completely undermine the mandate of government by the people as set in the preamble of the Constitution then you are essentially declaring American government illegitimate. "We will have to have more centralized security and more surveillance if we want to survive our technological growth." ... "personally I'm rooting for something closer to the United Federation of Planets." Do you really not see the danger of this? I understand the theoretical justifications globalists/universalists have, because they think the idea of national sovereignty is an old relic of the past, but I think such a viewpoint fails to take into account the primary issue: centralization is a weakness, not a strength. In just about every structure, especially one in which massive power flows, a centralized structure is much easier to subvert, manipulate, and control to more nefarious ends. "I'd much prefer to live in such "dystopia"" That's your prerogative, and I'm not sure if you are an American or not, but I have personally sworn an oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic, and I'm not about to just give up on the Constitution, the rule of law, or the will of the people and their freedoms and liberties for purported security. This is what makes America exceptional in an increasingly European post-colonial world.
  - ant6n 11y ago
    founded by We The Slave Owners...
    - arca_vorago 11y ago
      Thats such a rhetorically empty statement. No one claims it was perfect or by perfect people, but they certainly bested the British system! At least I don't have to swear allegiance to a Queen! The Constitution is my king.
- mindcrime 11y ago
  I'd much prefer to live in such "dystopia"[0] than in a country whose people got sick and died believing in the idea that individual liberties of a random dude with access to an advanced genome sequencing machine are basis for all other liberties. And I'd rather die on my feet that live on my knees. As far as I'm concerned, freedom is it's own end and needs no further justification. I mean, to be free is to have agency, and to be subjugated is to be denied that agency. And from what I can see, it's our agency, our free will (or the illusion thereof), our freedom to make decisions, that fundamentally makes us human. Without that, I see no reason to live at all.

sawwit 11y ago

I think it depends on whether the security apparatus is a central or decentralized one. Perhaps one would need to decentralize the decisions of individuals, but I can't think of a particular implementation of that idea.

TeMPOraL 11y ago

I think stuff isn't being rewritten - people are starting to figure it out by themselves, at least those who understand the technologies we're talking about here. Honestly, it doesn't matter what "idea" America was founded upon. The whole talk of "trading liberty for security" has become a religious dogma now, when originally it was meant only as an observation about a narrow group of cases. We will have to have more centralized security and more surveillance if we want to survive our technological growth. I'd much prefer to live in such "dystopia"[0] than in a country whose people got sick and died believing in the idea that individual liberties of a random dude with access to an advanced genome sequencing machine are basis for all other liberties. [0] - personally I'm rooting for something closer to the United Federation of Planets.

arca_vorago 11y ago
"Honestly, it doesn't matter what "idea" America was founded upon." On the contrary, I think it is of the utmost importance that America was founded by We The People and that if you completely undermine the mandate of government by the people as set in the preamble of the Constitution then you are essentially declaring American government illegitimate. "We will have to have more centralized security and more surveillance if we want to survive our technological growth." ... "personally I'm rooting for something closer to the United Federation of Planets." Do you really not see the danger of this? I understand the theoretical justifications globalists/universalists have, because they think the idea of national sovereignty is an old relic of the past, but I think such a viewpoint fails to take into account the primary issue: centralization is a weakness, not a strength. In just about every structure, especially one in which massive power flows, a centralized structure is much easier to subvert, manipulate, and control to more nefarious ends. "I'd much prefer to live in such "dystopia"" That's your prerogative, and I'm not sure if you are an American or not, but I have personally sworn an oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic, and I'm not about to just give up on the Constitution, the rule of law, or the will of the people and their freedoms and liberties for purported security. This is what makes America exceptional in an increasingly European post-colonial world.
- ant6n 11y ago
  founded by We The Slave Owners...
  - arca_vorago 11y ago
    Thats such a rhetorically empty statement. No one claims it was perfect or by perfect people, but they certainly bested the British system! At least I don't have to swear allegiance to a Queen! The Constitution is my king.
mindcrime 11y ago
I'd much prefer to live in such "dystopia"[0] than in a country whose people got sick and died believing in the idea that individual liberties of a random dude with access to an advanced genome sequencing machine are basis for all other liberties. And I'd rather die on my feet that live on my knees. As far as I'm concerned, freedom is it's own end and needs no further justification. I mean, to be free is to have agency, and to be subjugated is to be denied that agency. And from what I can see, it's our agency, our free will (or the illusion thereof), our freedom to make decisions, that fundamentally makes us human. Without that, I see no reason to live at all.