4 ms·

As a non-American, what is wrong with a 22-year old white woman dressing as Mulan ?

by iofj 11y ago

mhuffman 11y ago
Nothing. Very sensitive people get pissed over anything and everything. Sadly those people have time on their hands to write, picket, and generally get attention.
intopieces 11y ago
There is a tendency for white people to take reduction of other races and wear them as a way to make fun of that race/culture. Black face is a good example. The group of people being made fun of see this as another way of not being recognized for anything but their cultural stereotype. The line for this, however, is not universally agreed upon. Some seem to advocate that any cross-cultural dress-up is offensive, other believe any criticism at all is a violation of their 'free speech'.
- WalterSear 11y ago
  In the context of this discussion, that statement borders on the offensive. There's a tendency for people of all races to take reduction of other races and wear them as a way to make fun of that race/culture. To presume otherwise is to fall into the same trap as the students being discussed here.
  - intopieces 11y ago
    Sure. But not all races are in charge in America, so it hardly matters. White people are the ones who enslaved black people, kicked American Indians off of their land, etc. The offensiveness is ultimately in the context of historical power. Without this context, it's all made up. This is precisely why the protests against the museum in Boston were nonsensical: the US doesn't exert cultural dominance over Japan.
    - lloyddobbler 11y ago
      So you're telling me that as someone who comes from a historical power structure, I'm not allowed to have feelings? That I cannot be offended by a book about "Stuff White People Like," because of the "context of historical power"? That I am to be judged solely by my race and not as an individual? That standards should be different for me because I'm white? Hardly seems the world Dr. King was envisioning.
      - intopieces 11y ago
        >So you're telling me that as someone who comes from a historical power structure, I'm not allowed to have feelings? That I cannot be offended by a book about "Stuff White People Like," because of the "context of historical power"? The purpose of expressing offense to speech or content is to draw attention to historical power imbalances that have enabled the abuse of one group at the hands of another. Because no one has the power to control your feelings unless you allow them to, I would not presume to tell you how to feel. However, if you're arguing that "Stuff White People Like" is an example of how a dominant American group denigrates 'white culture' and is indicative of further systematic abuse of white people, I'm happy to take you to task on that claim, as it's demonstratively false. The same mistake is being made by these Yale students: they're focussing on their feelings and demanding that their government (in this case, the administration) take action against the people hurting their feelings. This has not worked and never will. You cannot legislate people's beliefs. You can only attempt to reason with them or draw their empathy through education. Some will believe you and join you, others will disagree.
    - WalterSear 11y ago
      >But not all races are in charge in America, so it hardly matters. Bollocks: it is of pivotal importance. There is always going to be some group with more power than the others, regardless of whether the difference is based on race, class, handedness, or simply having more power than other groups. Blaming one race for problems implies that, if another race was in power, there wouldn't be problems. Which is A) racist and B) exactly the kind of thinking that keeps getting us into this situation, over and over, as some of us struggle towards a more enlightened and egalitarian future, rather than engaging in group shaming and futile identity politics. Until we can start accepting that in-group bias is simply an extension of out-group prejudice, and that no group of people is immune to it, we are just going to keep bickering and fighting and struggling to dominate each other.
tptacek 11y ago
The argument would be that it reduces an important world culture to a cartoon stereotype. (It is a stupid argument.)
Jtsummers 11y ago
I don't know. But some people find it to be crossing a line. I don't get it, but I'm also not in a particular minority group (religious minority in my area, but I don't get upset about sexy nun costumes) that's commonly discriminated against. Some people might see it as cultural appropriation. But it's a fictional character. Similarly, my ex-girlfriend often (with the approval of her Taiwanese and Chinese friends) dressed in some traditional Chinese outfits for Halloween for several years. None took offense, they encouraged it! It's really hard to tell what's going to offend and what's not.
- vectorjohn 11y ago
  The concept of cultural appropriation as somehow offensive is misguided in my opinion, but "with the approval of her Taiwanese and Chinese friends" Is the wrong argument to make. It's the equivalent of "I say offensive black jokes around my black friends and they think it's funny."
  - Torgo 11y ago
    The aggrieved always initially present their offense as being representative of the entire community of x. Saying "my friends are OK with it" is a way of saying "you don't speak for all X" and puts them in a position of replying "well maybe the people who know you best and live in your community aren't offended, but they should be according to this essay on critical race theory.
- alextgordon 11y ago
  The idea of Chinese people being a "minority group" makes me laugh. It is so absurd that it must be a strawman.
  - Jtsummers 11y ago
    Depends on where you are. And even if globally or even regionally they aren't, in the US there's a history of legal and extralegal abuse of Chinese immigrants. And then go back and look at the way they have been represented in numerous movies and tv shows over the decades in the US. It's not a pretty picture. Calling them a minority group may not be accurate, but there certainly is or was racism/nationalism/religionism targeted against them.
gmarx 11y ago
For some people, altering what other people do by acting super offended is the only power they will ever experience. The text of the offense is not important and does not have to make any sense to you.
- michaelbuddy 11y ago
  I love this comment and idea put forth.

As a non-American, what is wrong with a 22-year old white woman dressing as Mulan ?

by iofj 11y ago

As a non-American, what is wrong with a 22-year old white woman dressing as Mulan ?

Nothing. Very sensitive people get pissed over anything and everything. Sadly those people have time on their hands to write, picket, and generally get attention.

intopieces 11y ago

There is a tendency for white people to take reduction of other races and wear them as a way to make fun of that race/culture. Black face is a good example. The group of people being made fun of see this as another way of not being recognized for anything but their cultural stereotype. The line for this, however, is not universally agreed upon. Some seem to advocate that any cross-cultural dress-up is offensive, other believe any criticism at all is a violation of their 'free speech'.

WalterSear 11y ago
In the context of this discussion, that statement borders on the offensive. There's a tendency for people of all races to take reduction of other races and wear them as a way to make fun of that race/culture. To presume otherwise is to fall into the same trap as the students being discussed here.
- intopieces 11y ago
  Sure. But not all races are in charge in America, so it hardly matters. White people are the ones who enslaved black people, kicked American Indians off of their land, etc. The offensiveness is ultimately in the context of historical power. Without this context, it's all made up. This is precisely why the protests against the museum in Boston were nonsensical: the US doesn't exert cultural dominance over Japan.
  - lloyddobbler 11y ago
    So you're telling me that as someone who comes from a historical power structure, I'm not allowed to have feelings? That I cannot be offended by a book about "Stuff White People Like," because of the "context of historical power"? That I am to be judged solely by my race and not as an individual? That standards should be different for me because I'm white? Hardly seems the world Dr. King was envisioning.
    - intopieces 11y ago
      >So you're telling me that as someone who comes from a historical power structure, I'm not allowed to have feelings? That I cannot be offended by a book about "Stuff White People Like," because of the "context of historical power"? The purpose of expressing offense to speech or content is to draw attention to historical power imbalances that have enabled the abuse of one group at the hands of another. Because no one has the power to control your feelings unless you allow them to, I would not presume to tell you how to feel. However, if you're arguing that "Stuff White People Like" is an example of how a dominant American group denigrates 'white culture' and is indicative of further systematic abuse of white people, I'm happy to take you to task on that claim, as it's demonstratively false. The same mistake is being made by these Yale students: they're focussing on their feelings and demanding that their government (in this case, the administration) take action against the people hurting their feelings. This has not worked and never will. You cannot legislate people's beliefs. You can only attempt to reason with them or draw their empathy through education. Some will believe you and join you, others will disagree.
  - WalterSear 11y ago
    >But not all races are in charge in America, so it hardly matters. Bollocks: it is of pivotal importance. There is always going to be some group with more power than the others, regardless of whether the difference is based on race, class, handedness, or simply having more power than other groups. Blaming one race for problems implies that, if another race was in power, there wouldn't be problems. Which is A) racist and B) exactly the kind of thinking that keeps getting us into this situation, over and over, as some of us struggle towards a more enlightened and egalitarian future, rather than engaging in group shaming and futile identity politics. Until we can start accepting that in-group bias is simply an extension of out-group prejudice, and that no group of people is immune to it, we are just going to keep bickering and fighting and struggling to dominate each other.

tptacek 11y ago

The argument would be that it reduces an important world culture to a cartoon stereotype. (It is a stupid argument.)

Jtsummers 11y ago

I don't know. But some people find it to be crossing a line. I don't get it, but I'm also not in a particular minority group (religious minority in my area, but I don't get upset about sexy nun costumes) that's commonly discriminated against. Some people might see it as cultural appropriation. But it's a fictional character. Similarly, my ex-girlfriend often (with the approval of her Taiwanese and Chinese friends) dressed in some traditional Chinese outfits for Halloween for several years. None took offense, they encouraged it! It's really hard to tell what's going to offend and what's not.

vectorjohn 11y ago
The concept of cultural appropriation as somehow offensive is misguided in my opinion, but "with the approval of her Taiwanese and Chinese friends" Is the wrong argument to make. It's the equivalent of "I say offensive black jokes around my black friends and they think it's funny."
- Torgo 11y ago
  The aggrieved always initially present their offense as being representative of the entire community of x. Saying "my friends are OK with it" is a way of saying "you don't speak for all X" and puts them in a position of replying "well maybe the people who know you best and live in your community aren't offended, but they should be according to this essay on critical race theory.
alextgordon 11y ago
The idea of Chinese people being a "minority group" makes me laugh. It is so absurd that it must be a strawman.
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  Depends on where you are. And even if globally or even regionally they aren't, in the US there's a history of legal and extralegal abuse of Chinese immigrants. And then go back and look at the way they have been represented in numerous movies and tv shows over the decades in the US. It's not a pretty picture. Calling them a minority group may not be accurate, but there certainly is or was racism/nationalism/religionism targeted against them.

gmarx 11y ago

For some people, altering what other people do by acting super offended is the only power they will ever experience. The text of the offense is not important and does not have to make any sense to you.

michaelbuddy 11y ago
I love this comment and idea put forth.